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  #26  
Old 03-20-2017, 08:02 PM
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Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The kingdom of God taken from old covenant Israel and given to another people.

Agree?

Ok... the You here never stopped existing after the kingdom of God was taken away. So the kingdom here and the you are two objects separate from one the other.

If the Kingdom of God was taken from Israel and Israel still exists as a people, then the Kingdom is something other than Israel or the people. So Old Covenant Israel was not, never was, the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom was something they possessed... In other words God walked with them and they had no need to test God.
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:07 PM
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So the kingdom of God that was old covenant Israel being a physical land was made up of good and bad people.

But the new covenant kingdom of God as we have already established is made up only of righteous.

See where Im going? This is exciting stuff I saw in Gods word last night.

The parable of the wheat and tares. It must be about old covenant Israel and its demise because tares do not grow with wheat in the new covenant kingdom.
Quote(So the kingdom of God that was old covenant Israel being a physical land was made up of good and bad people.) end quote.

Is this not a long jump conclusion... Was the Kingdom of God old covenant Isreal? Really? The Kingdom of God changes?
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:08 PM
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No but I can find verses that appear to be warnings such as the one mentioned from Galatians 5:21.

Maybe it's a warning to non-Christians. The only thing I got going for me personally is "and such were some of you but you were washed."

Beyond this when we start comparing each other's sin lists that keep one out of the Kingdom, we always exclude ourselves.
We'd better hope it's all about grace otherwise there is no hope.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
It was a warning to those that were about to inherit the Kingdom...it was being taken from the Nation of Israel and given to a people that would produce fruit.
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:12 PM
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"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit."

They had to possess it in order to have it taken.

But only until the full number of Gentiles has come in. Then the natural branches can be grafted back in.

"Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious."

Romans 11:25-26
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:15 PM
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Quote(So the kingdom of God that was old covenant Israel being a physical land was made up of good and bad people.) end quote.

Is this not a long jump conclusion... Was the Kingdom of God old covenant Isreal? Really? The Kingdom of God changes?
In light of matt. 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.

It changed hands, I dont think anyone will say it still belongs to national israel, especially since National israel failed to exist for about 2k years up to 1948.
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:18 PM
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So the harvest parable in Matthew 13 parallels with the harvest in Rev. 14 and both are concerning the harvest that took place the year after 69ad.

Which is the taking away of the kingdom from Israel and giving to a new nation.
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  #32  
Old 03-21-2017, 10:41 AM
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I think that we must reconcile Matthew 21:43 with Romans 11.
In Matthews Jesus said the kingdom of God was taken away from Israel because of her unbelief and rejection of the Messiah. Israel was/is in a state of hardening as presented in Romans 11.
One day this hardening will be removed as described in Romans 11.

This is from Acts 1;
6So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Israel will one day enjoy the covenant blessings of a God who is faithful to keep His promises. This is also mentioned in Romans.

If national Israel has vanished, how do we expect to be grafted in? How can we become heirs to the commonwealth of Israel?

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
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Old 03-21-2017, 11:13 AM
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Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world
"At that time" Doest that point to a recent past time for them?

There is a a period of time known by theologians as ( the already but not yet). Futurist believe we are still in this time of already but not yet... I think it was in this time we read of between the annointing of Christ in Baptism and the destruction of temple.
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  #34  
Old 03-21-2017, 01:58 PM
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That's a good explanation of Ephesians 2:12, what about Romans 11 describing the blindness of Israel until the full number of Gentiles has came in? The grafting in of Gentiles into Israel?
And in this way all Israel will be saved? And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins?

Romans 11:28-29
28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

Explain how we are grafted into an Israel that no longer exists.
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Old 03-21-2017, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
That's a good explanation of Ephesians 2:12, what about Romans 11 describing the blindness of Israel until the full number of Gentiles has came in? The grafting in of Gentiles into Israel?
And in this way all Israel will be saved? And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins?

Romans 11:28-29
28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

Explain how we are grafted into an Israel that no longer exists.
Art, the time was fast approaching for the harvest to take place. The gentiles started receiving the Holy Spirit and the kingdom. This should have opened the eyes of the blind...thats what it was designed to do, so all Israel would be saved..the elect.. Not all that were in Israel were Israel...but all Israel was going to be saved before the fast approaching harvest. The unrighteous were separated from the elect...the wheat and tares...the sheep and goats..it was a cleansing of Gods kingdom.

Read these verses in my TKB version.

25. For I would not , brothers, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, unless you should be wise in your own conceits : that blindness from part of Israel has happened, until the fullness of the nations have entered: 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved: as it is written, there will come out of Zion the Deliverer, and will turn away ungodliness from Jacob:27 for this is My covenant to them, when I will take away their sins.28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as concerning the election, they are beloved for the Father's sake.
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  #36  
Old 03-21-2017, 06:47 PM
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Art, the time was fast approaching for the harvest to take place. The gentiles started receiving the Holy Spirit and the kingdom. This should have opened the eyes of the blind...thats what it was designed to do, so all Israel would be saved..the elect.. Not all that were in Israel were Israel...but all Israel was going to be saved before the fast approaching harvest. The unrighteous were separated from the elect...the wheat and tares...the sheep and goats..it was a cleansing of Gods kingdom.

Read these verses in my TKB version.

25. For I would not , brothers, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, unless you should be wise in your own conceits : that blindness from part of Israel has happened, until the fullness of the nations have entered: 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved: as it is written, there will come out of Zion the Deliverer, and will turn away ungodliness from Jacob:27 for this is My covenant to them, when I will take away their sins.28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as concerning the election, they are beloved for the Father's sake.
Then 70AD was just the start of the harvest. It can't be a one time event as the wheat is continuously being planted and harvested.
We still have the Wheat and Tares to this day. We still have evil outside the gates.

Do we as Christians go back and forth through these gates of the Kingdom to sometimes experience evil? If there is no evil in the Kingdom, we must.
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Old 03-21-2017, 06:49 PM
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Ok... the You here never stopped existing after the kingdom of God was taken away. So the kingdom here and the you are two objects separate from one the other.

If the Kingdom of God was taken from Israel and Israel still exists as a people, then the Kingdom is something other than Israel or the people. So Old Covenant Israel was not, never was, the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom was something they possessed... In other words God walked with them and they had no need to test God.
I dont believe Israel exists as a people. They're mostly european decent now, Rabbinic Judaism is a made up religion out of the ashes of the temple. But I agree they were not the Kingdom but possessed it. It was a gift..the Land was part of their covenant with God..God took that from them.
The Kingdom now reigns over the entire earth, knowing no boundaries, and no races.
Any man in any nation or even on the moon can receive the kingdom of God.
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  #38  
Old 03-21-2017, 07:01 PM
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Read these verses in my TKB version.

25. For I would not , brothers, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, unless you should be wise in your own conceits : that blindness from part of Israel has happened, until the fullness of the nations have entered: 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved: as it is written, there will come out of Zion the Deliverer, and will turn away ungodliness from Jacob:27 for this is My covenant to them, when I will take away their sins.28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as concerning the election, they are beloved for the Father's sake.
What about the "mystery?" You are saying the blindness is over and in this way "all Israel was saved." That Jesus removed all Godliness from Zion. This being a new spiritual Zion.
What was the mystery? That physical Zion "changed" into a spiritual Zion? That the Gentiles were grafted into a Spiritual Commonwealth of Israel?

Let's move on in Romans 11;
27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.Ē 28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For Godís gifts and His call are irrevocable.

Which Israel is this talking about? The one that regarding the gospel, they are enemies on our account but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs? What is God's connection to Israel as it concerns the irrevocable call and gifts in relation to this mystery?
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  #39  
Old 03-21-2017, 07:13 PM
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How does this tie into the mystery that started in 70AD;

30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all.33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!

Why include all of this if it wasn't part of the mystery that we'd have trouble understanding?
God choosing a remnant and hardening the rest of Israel until the full number of Gentiles were grafted in. This to make physical Israel jealous. Then lifting the hardening. Us not being ignorant of this mystery. Then following that with a passage of their disobedience being orchestrated to "allow" us to be grafted in. The mystery that God's gifts and His call are irrevocable.
The mystery that we who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience. The mystery that they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.

The mystery that God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all. Wow talk about a mystery. Paul knew we wouldn't understand this. That is the reason he followed with this passage about physical Israel's disobedience to allow us salvation.
He follows with;
33O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways! 34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?”

Why would Paul go so far as to include that?
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  #40  
Old 03-21-2017, 07:16 PM
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Then 70AD was just the start of the harvest. It can't be a one time event as the wheat is continuously being planted and harvested.
We still have the Wheat and Tares to this day. We still have evil outside the gates.

Do we as Christians go back and forth through these gates of the Kingdom to sometimes experience evil? If there is no evil in the Kingdom, we must.

The kingdom is here..this is about living on earth in the kingdom , not about the after life.

It was a one time deal for Israel. Its time was over, the harvest was made and the righteous out of her inherited the new covenant kingdom...as Gordon said, they walked with God.
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Old 03-21-2017, 07:18 PM
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The mystery was simply the Gentiles were going to inherit the kingdom.
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  #42  
Old 03-21-2017, 07:24 PM
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Why did God choose Israel to begin with? If it's always been about this new spiritual Israel, why did God go to all the trouble to make a big deal about the Jewish thing?
Why didn't he just bring a Messiah to the world through a nondescript person? Why didn't he make a covenant with the whole world to show the whole world we couldn't keep the Law?

Maybe since he set up the Jews for failure, so the their disobedience would mean salvation to the world, he made it a part of his plan to Elect them for being Jews because of genealogy. Because of the promises to the Patriarchs.

Romans 9:4
They are the people of Israel, chosen to be God's adopted children. God revealed his glory to them. He made covenants with them and gave them his law. He gave them the privilege of worshiping him and receiving his wonderful promises.

"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery."
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Old 03-21-2017, 07:27 PM
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I dont know. They were the lineage from Seth down. I dont know why God did what He did, Im just happy having some of what Hes done revealed to me in His word
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Old 03-21-2017, 07:34 PM
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The mystery was simply the Gentiles were going to inherit the kingdom.
Paul sure had a funny way of explaining it with God choosing of Remnant, blinding the rest, removing the natural branches from the Jewish root, grafting in Gentile branches, lifting the blinding, allowing the natural branches to be add back in, mentioning this was necessary to make physical Israel jealous, mentioning that all Israel would be saved, mentioning they were enemies of the gospel to allow the Gentiles to inherit the Kingdom.

Talking about a mystery followed by a passage that Gentiles who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.

To follow with "God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all."

A whole passage following they shouldn't be ignorant of a mystery that "all Israel will be saved."

That's a strange way of explaining that the mystery was Gentiles can now inherit the Kingdom of God.
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Old 03-21-2017, 07:41 PM
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The kingdom is here..this is about living on earth in the kingdom , not about the after life.

It was a one time deal for Israel. Its time was over, the harvest was made and the righteous out of her inherited the new covenant kingdom...as Gordon said, they walked with God.
But we still have tares and evil. We as Christians still commit lust, hatred, anger, not helping others, not feeding the poor, jealousy, greed, and on and on.

We are still physical. It's like we aren't quite in this Kingdom on earth as it is in Heaven. Maybe we occasionally leave through the gate and perform our evil there, outside the Kingdom walls.
Maybe our spirits are in this spiritual Kingdom on earth and our bodies are still outside the gates where evil exists.
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Old 03-21-2017, 07:47 PM
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I dont know. They were the lineage from Seth down. I dont know why God did what He did, Im just happy having some of what Hes done revealed to me in His word
I think God chose a small Kingdom out of the whole of the earth to show us all that this small group could not keep the Law. It was his test group if you will.
In regards to using them as a test group Romans 11 explains that the mystery was by using them, salvation was offered to the Gentiles. Their disobedience meant salvation to the Gentiles. Thus in hardening them to make everything go down properly, with the Cross and all, he would have mercy on them. Theirs is a promise because of the Patriarchs. They too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.

The mystery is God's election. We can't understand how it works but if anyone can forgive the Jews, God can.

Reformers Comments on the Jewish People;

John Calvin;
"as Jews are the firstborn, what the Prophet declares must be fulfilled, especially in them: for that scripture calls all the people of God Israelites, it is to be ascribed to the pre-eminence of that nation, who God had preferred to all other nations."

Charles Hodge;
"The future restoration of the Jews is, in itself, a more probable event than the introduction of the Gentiles into the church of God. This, of course, supposes that God regarded the Jews, on account of their relation to him, with peculiar favor, and that there is still something in their relation to the ancient servants of God and his covenant with them, which causes them to be regarded with special interest."

John Murray;
While it is true that in respect of the privileges accruing from Christ's accomplishments there is now no longer Jew or Gentile and the Gentiles "are fellow-heirs, and fellow-members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (Eph. 3:6), yet it does not follow that Israel no longer fulfills any particular design in the realization of God's worldwide saving purpose...Israel are both "enemies" and "beloved" at the same time, enemies as regards the gospel, beloved as regards the election..."Beloved" thus means that God has not suspended or rescinded his relation to Israel as his chosen people in terms of the covenants made with their fathers.
Unfaithful as Israel have been and broken off for that reason, yet God still sustains his peculiar relation of love to them, a relation that will be demonstrated and vindicated in the restoration."

Geerhardus Vos
"The elective principle, abolished as to nationality, continues in force as to individuals. And even with respect to national privilege, while temporarily abolished now that its purpose has been fulfilled, there still remains reserved for the future a certain fulfillment of the national elective promise. Israel in its racial capacity will again in the future be visited by the saving grace of God [Rom. 11.2, 12, 25].

Jonathan Edwards
"Jewish infidelity shall be overthrown...the Jews in all their dispersions shall cast away their old infidelity, and shall have their hearts wonderfully changed, and abhor themselves for their past unbelief and obstinacy. They shall flow together to the blessed Jesus, penitently, humbly, and joyfully owning him as their glorious King and only Savior, and shall with all their hearts, as one heart and voice, declare his praises unto other nations...Nothing is more certainly foretold than this national conversion of the Jews in Rom. xi.

Matthew Henry;
Another thing that qualifies this doctrine of the Jews' rejection is that, though for the present they are cast off, yet the rejection is not final; but, when the fullness of time is come, they will be taken in again. They are not cast off for ever, but mercy is remembered in the midst of wrath.

The Jews are in a sense a holy nation (Exod. xix.6), being descended from holy parents. Now it cannot be imagined that such a holy nation should be totally and finally cast off. This proves that the seed of believers, as such, are within the pale of the visible church, and within the verge of the covenant, till they do, by their unbelief, throw themselves out; for, if the root be holy, so are the branches....Though grace does not run in the blood, yet external privileges do (till they are forfeited), even to a thousand generations...The Jewish branches are reckoned holy, because the root was so. This is expressed more plainly (Rom. 11:28).

http://www.chaim.org/reformers.html

John MacArthur on Israel and Hermeneutics:
The irony is that those who most celebrate the sovereign grace of election regarding the church, and its inviolable place in God's purpose from predestination to glorification, and those who most aggressively and militantly defend the truth of promise and fulfillment, those who are the advocates of election being divine, unilateral, unconditional, and irrevocable by nature for the church, unashamedly deny the same for elect Israel. That is a strange division. As it does, the perpetuity of the elect church to salvation glory, so the Scripture in similar language and by promises from the same God, affirms the perpetuity of ethnic Israel to a future salvation of a generation of Jews that will fulfill all divine promises given to them by God.

http://reformedperspectives.org/arti...acAttaack.html

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