Some additional perspective on deer population

mtr3333 · Dec 15, 2014

elfiii said:
All true except for the hearsay part. The hearsay echos what the biologists are saying - declining fawn recruitment rates on one end and unsustainable excessive doe harvest on the other end is causing a population problem in many areas of the state and if left unchecked it will become a general problem statewide. Thus the reintroduction of limiting either sex days.

I have kept detailed records over the last 17 years of every hunt by every hunter on my property. The analysis of that data confirms what we are seeing live on the ground. Other hunters in our neck of the woods are experiencing the same thing. While the data is anecdotal it does support the central thesis. My experience might be the extreme but it is not localized to just me. There are plenty of others experiencing the same thing and WRD agrees there is a problem for many right now that could become a problem for everybody in the not too distant future.

I'll recheck what I read. But I thought you wrote, "what other hunters in the area are saying."

Then predation and competition for habitat and food sources may play heavily in some cases. Either way it is not the rule for the entire state. Hog and coyote control should be a consideration if that's the case. It still boils down to what the habitat can support, what is taken out of the population, and what is replaced. Deer are everywhere when you don't want them.

mtr3333 · Dec 15, 2014

I took this as hearsay.

elfiii said:
I know this is so because where I hunt is one of those places. I have kept detailed records since 1997 and I listen to what the hunters surrounding me are saying.

mtr3333 · Dec 16, 2014

elfiii said:
My experience might be the extreme but it is not localized to just me. There are plenty of others experiencing the same thing and WRD agrees there is a problem for many right now that could become a problem for everybody in the not too distant future.

I have one more thought. If all of your focus group are on the same page and do not shoot does in your area, how will imposing restrictions on others who do not share in your dilemma solve anything? Methinks something else is astir. When an entire area has this complaint and everyone is abiding by self imposed action, how will making a regulation change do anything if people already do what the new reg is supposed to force?

If people are just making this talk as a front and really are taking does without your knowledge, then more regulation won't stop them either. In your opinion, what has caused your deer shortage? Is there a rogue club somewhere that just magically draws all of your and your neighbors' deer to their property to slaughter? Has doe eating Hogzilla gone nocturnal?

Here's what I like about the way I choose to hunt. If I see deer no problem. If I don't see deer no problem. Too often the deer management craze makes hunting expectations unrealistic. Shame that more people can't find satisfaction much simpler than trying to outpace their underachievement, then try to impose restrictions on others so they can feel better about the great things they are doing on everyone's behalf. I guess there's a victory in that somewhere.

I stand behind the same statement I have made in the past. If there aren't enough deer, don't hunt there. If there aren't enough does, don't shoot them. If hunting is that much trouble, take up golf and complain about sand in your shoes.

elfiii · Dec 16, 2014

mtr3333 said:
I took this as hearsay.

You could characterize it as that and my reply would be in my neck of the woods the hearsay is widespread among not only the average hunter but taxidermists and other reputable sources. There has been a sudden, severe decline in the deer population in large areas of SE Troup, NE Harris and SW Meriwether counties. 10 years ago you could ride down Main St. in Pine Mountain at night and see dozens of deer in people's front yards. Not so anymore. The human population of Pine Mountain and surrounding environs hasn't changed much in that time period.

mtr3333 said:
I have one more thought. If all of your focus group are on the same page and do not shoot does in your area, how will imposing restrictions on others who do not share in your dilemma solve anything? Methinks something else is astir. When an entire area has this complaint and everyone is abiding by self imposed action, how will making a regulation change do anything if people already do what the new reg is supposed to force?

If people are just making this talk as a front and really are taking does without your knowledge, then more regulation won't stop them either. In your opinion, what has caused your deer shortage? Is there a rogue club somewhere that just magically draws all of your and your neighbors' deer to their property to slaughter? Has doe eating Hogzilla gone nocturnal?

Here's what I like about the way I choose to hunt. If I see deer no problem. If I don't see deer no problem. Too often the deer management craze makes hunting expectations unrealistic. Shame that more people can't find satisfaction much simpler than trying to outpace their underachievement, then try to impose restrictions on others so they can feel better about the great things they are doing on everyone's behalf. I guess there's a victory in that somewhere.

I stand behind the same statement I have made in the past. If there aren't enough deer, don't hunt there. If there aren't enough does, don't shoot them. If hunting is that much trouble, take up golf and complain about sand in your shoes.

I do not know if we are on the same page or not. I know what the two clubs next to me are doing from talking to them. Others, not so much. Talk is cheap.

It is slowly dawning on a lot of hunters they are the problem and the solution. No matter what WRD does in the final analysis it's the trigger puller who has the final say in what the population will/will not be.

In my informed opinion I know exactly what has caused the population crash in my neck of the woods - a rapidly declining fawn recruitment rate coupled with over killing of does. My own detailed records show that since 1997 our doe kill has been 57% of the total deer killed on my 2 100 acre tracts of land. Predation and habitat modification by the timber company next door to one of my tracts has been a contributing factor but the big one is excessive doe killing. Accordingly I have placed a moratorium on killing any does on my two tracts of land until the population rebounds. What others do is their business but prudence dictates they do the same thing. Some of them are waking up. Others are going back to golf and tennis. Still others just keep on pulling that trigger. What's a mother to do?

I started deer hunting a long time ago when the limit was one doe and two bucks with 10 either sex days during the entire season - the week of Thanksgiving and Christmas to New Years. I went back to back to back to back deer seasons without seeing a single deer and if I did it was a doe and it wasn't a doe day. I'm in it for the experience of the chase and being in the woods and if I see deer great, if I don't great, scout harder and hunt harder. That being said I've also gone back to back to back seasons where my places were both lousy with deer like fleas on a dog's back. Having seen both lean and overabundance times I'm looking to strike a balance somewhere in the "adequate" range. That would be a deer population closely approximating the carrying capacity of the local habitat. From there the killing becomes selective based on what's best to maintain the herd at a healthy level.

Personally I haven't killed a deer since 2010 and haven't killed a doe since 2009 though I have had multiple opportunities so to do. I became aware of the problem some time ago and changed my ways. Since then I have watched others continue the same bad behavior that brought us the problem which is now acute. Like I said, some of them are waking up. I choose to lead by example and encourage others to do the right thing and lay off the does.

Milkman · Dec 16, 2014

paulpaul said:
Milkman is so true! But we as hunters as a whole are dumb as a rock! As we have all read in this forum " I SEE DEER ALL THE TIME" yea wait a couple of years dumb dumb...the days are coming when they will be saying "I DON'T SEE ANY DEER". We can all preach till we are red in the face....nobody will listen till its to late to do anything. So keep shooting does you "QDM" hunters! Don't come whining on this forum....because we told you so.

davidhelmly said:
What an ignorant post, I bet you don't see many deer.

paulpaul said:
You must be a Auburn fan! Tell me what is ignorant.

Red350SS · Dec 16, 2014

elfiii said:
You could characterize it as that and my reply would be in my neck of the woods the hearsay is widespread among not only the average hunter but taxidermists and other reputable sources. There has been a sudden, severe decline in the deer population in large areas of SE Troup, NE Harris and SW Meriwether counties. 10 years ago you could ride down Main St. in Pine Mountain at night and see dozens of deer in people's front yards. Not so anymore. The human population of Pine Mountain and surrounding environs hasn't changed much in that time period.

I do not know if we are on the same page or not. I know what the two clubs next to me are doing from talking to them. Others, not so much. Talk is cheap.

It is slowly dawning on a lot of hunters they are the problem and the solution. No matter what WRD does in the final analysis it's the trigger puller who has the final say in what the population will/will not be.

In my informed opinion I know exactly what has caused the population crash in my neck of the woods - a rapidly declining fawn recruitment rate coupled with over killing of does. My own detailed records show that since 1997 our doe kill has been 57% of the total deer killed on my 2 100 acre tracts of land. Predation and habitat modification by the timber company next door to one of my tracts has been a contributing factor but the big one is excessive doe killing. Accordingly I have placed a moratorium on killing any does on my two tracts of land until the population rebounds. What others do is their business but prudence dictates they do the same thing. Some of them are waking up. Others are going back to golf and tennis. Still others just keep on pulling that trigger. What's a mother to do?

I started deer hunting a long time ago when the limit was one doe and two bucks with 10 either sex days during the entire season - the week of Thanksgiving and Christmas to New Years. I went back to back to back to back deer seasons without seeing a single deer and if I did it was a doe and it wasn't a doe day. I'm in it for the experience of the chase and being in the woods and if I see deer great, if I don't great, scout harder and hunt harder. That being said I've also gone back to back to back seasons where my places were both lousy with deer like fleas on a dog's back. Having seen both lean and overabundance times I'm looking to strike a balance somewhere in the "adequate" range. That would be a deer population closely approximating the carrying capacity of the local habitat. From there the killing becomes selective based on what's best to maintain the herd at a healthy level.

Personally I haven't killed a deer since 2010 and haven't killed a doe since 2009 though I have had multiple opportunities so to do. I became aware of the problem some time ago and changed my ways. Since then I have watched others continue the same bad behavior that brought us the problem which is now acute. Like I said, some of them are waking up. I choose to lead by example and encourage others to do the right thing and lay off the does.

Good advice and insight here...

mtr3333 · Dec 16, 2014

elfiii said:
I do not know if we are on the same page or not. I know what the two clubs next to me are doing from talking to them. Others, not so much. Talk is cheap.

It is slowly dawning on a lot of hunters they are the problem and the solution. No matter what WRD does in the final analysis it's the trigger puller who has the final say in what the population will/will not be.

In my informed opinion I know exactly what has caused the population crash in my neck of the woods - a rapidly declining fawn recruitment rate coupled with over killing of does. My own detailed records show that since 1997 our doe kill has been 57% of the total deer killed on my 2 100 acre tracts of land. Predation and habitat modification by the timber company next door to one of my tracts has been a contributing factor but the big one is excessive doe killing. Accordingly I have placed a moratorium on killing any does on my two tracts of land until the population rebounds. What others do is their business but prudence dictates they do the same thing. Some of them are waking up. Others are going back to golf and tennis. Still others just keep on pulling that trigger. What's a mother to do?

Fair enough. Still need to keep the regulation out and use our discernment.

Milkman · Dec 16, 2014

mtr3333 said:
Fair enough. Still need to keep the regulation out and use our discernment.

See the OP, This thread wasnt intended to be about the need or no need for regulation changes. Yall took it there

mtr3333 · Dec 16, 2014

Milkman said:
Posts on the Woodys/GON deer forum

Group # 1
A good many people have posted concerns here about the declining deer population. IMO this is a very valid concern.

Group # 2
Others have posted that the deer population in their area is still good or even better.

Group # 3
Another smaller group seems to be nonchalant and doesn't give a rip about deer populations as long as they "fill the freezer"

One thing I can foresee is that those in group # 1 & 3 who currently hunt in places with declining populations will not be satisfied with that. They will leave that location. Where will they go ?? They will buy or lease land somewhere that there are deer. This will have a direct effect on the people in group # 2. The lease rates in the higher population areas will go up due to the age old rules of supply and demand. Land with many deer is worth more than land with few deer.

The end result could be disastrous for the deer. We have to police ourselves to save the deer.

Milkman said:
See the OP, This thread wasnt intended to be about the need or no need for regulation changes. Yall took it there

Actually the group one people are gaining momentum to regulate everyone else. That is case and point with the misguided use of Killmaster's data in the Cedar Creek antler restriction thread. Hunting should be the epitome of freedom instead of a govt show of force through regulation of the people who own it. To me it has been there all the time. I'm glad you are seeing the light though.

macdaddy63 · Dec 16, 2014

Everyone should shoot a less does and right before the fawns drop, go shoot a couple of yotes. That's what I'm doing. Think that would help get more deer. That's what we are doing where I hunt.

CamoDawg85 · Dec 17, 2014

elfiii said:
You could characterize it as that and my reply would be in my neck of the woods the hearsay is widespread among not only the average hunter but taxidermists and other reputable sources. There has been a sudden, severe decline in the deer population in large areas of SE Troup, NE Harris and SW Meriwether counties. 10 years ago you could ride down Main St. in Pine Mountain at night and see dozens of deer in people's front yards. Not so anymore. The human population of Pine Mountain and surrounding environs hasn't changed much in that time period.

I do not know if we are on the same page or not. I know what the two clubs next to me are doing from talking to them. Others, not so much. Talk is cheap.

It is slowly dawning on a lot of hunters they are the problem and the solution. No matter what WRD does in the final analysis it's the trigger puller who has the final say in what the population will/will not be.

In my informed opinion I know exactly what has caused the population crash in my neck of the woods - a rapidly declining fawn recruitment rate coupled with over killing of does. My own detailed records show that since 1997 our doe kill has been 57% of the total deer killed on my 2 100 acre tracts of land. Predation and habitat modification by the timber company next door to one of my tracts has been a contributing factor but the big one is excessive doe killing. Accordingly I have placed a moratorium on killing any does on my two tracts of land until the population rebounds. What others do is their business but prudence dictates they do the same thing. Some of them are waking up. Others are going back to golf and tennis. Still others just keep on pulling that trigger. What's a mother to do?

I started deer hunting a long time ago when the limit was one doe and two bucks with 10 either sex days during the entire season - the week of Thanksgiving and Christmas to New Years. I went back to back to back to back deer seasons without seeing a single deer and if I did it was a doe and it wasn't a doe day. I'm in it for the experience of the chase and being in the woods and if I see deer great, if I don't great, scout harder and hunt harder. That being said I've also gone back to back to back seasons where my places were both lousy with deer like fleas on a dog's back. Having seen both lean and overabundance times I'm looking to strike a balance somewhere in the "adequate" range. That would be a deer population closely approximating the carrying capacity of the local habitat. From there the killing becomes selective based on what's best to maintain the herd at a healthy level.

Personally I haven't killed a deer since 2010 and haven't killed a doe since 2009 though I have had multiple opportunities so to do. I became aware of the problem some time ago and changed my ways. Since then I have watched others continue the same bad behavior that brought us the problem which is now acute. Like I said, some of them are waking up. I choose to lead by example and encourage others to do the right thing and lay off the does.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Great post elfii

Triple C · Dec 17, 2014

elfiii said:
In my informed opinion I know exactly what has caused the population crash in my neck of the woods - a rapidly declining fawn recruitment rate coupled with over killing of does. My own detailed records show that since 1997 our doe kill has been 57% of the total deer killed on my 2 100 acre tracts of land. Predation and habitat modification by the timber company next door to one of my tracts has been a contributing factor but the big one is excessive doe killing. Accordingly I have placed a moratorium on killing any does on my two tracts of land until the population rebounds. What others do is their business but prudence dictates they do the same thing. Some of them are waking up. Others are going back to golf and tennis. Still others just keep on pulling that trigger. What's a mother to do?

I started deer hunting a long time ago when the limit was one doe and two bucks with 10 either sex days during the entire season - the week of Thanksgiving and Christmas to New Years. I went back to back to back to back deer seasons without seeing a single deer and if I did it was a doe and it wasn't a doe day. I'm in it for the experience of the chase and being in the woods and if I see deer great, if I don't great, scout harder and hunt harder. That being said I've also gone back to back to back seasons where my places were both lousy with deer like fleas on a dog's back. Having seen both lean and overabundance times I'm looking to strike a balance somewhere in the "adequate" range. That would be a deer population closely approximating the carrying capacity of the local habitat. From there the killing becomes selective based on what's best to maintain the herd at a healthy level.

Personally I haven't killed a deer since 2010 and haven't killed a doe since 2009 though I have had multiple opportunities so to do. I became aware of the problem some time ago and changed my ways. Since then I have watched others continue the same bad behavior that brought us the problem which is now acute. Like I said, some of them are waking up. I choose to lead by example and encourage others to do the right thing and lay off the does.

Great insight Elfii. The sound of reason...We're blessed in that we don't have your problem in our neck of the woods. But, due to the decline in fawn recruitment, we're laying off the does in hopes that we will continue to have a stabilized herd. We are fortunate to have a decent doe number at present and plan to do all we can to keep it that way.

I actually miss the old days of the December break for all deer hunting. But probably more due to nostalgia than anything else. Pretty sure my boys would disagree with me on that one.

Millyville Hunter · Dec 17, 2014

Alright here is a little insight to my previous post and then some. Alot to do with the true way of qdma on a piece of property.
This past weekend I went to a friend of mines property for their annual doe fest weekend. I have been a part of this for the past 5 years. Usually around this time of year me and a good bit of my friends gather to help them reduce doe numbers and help with overall carrying capacity of the property. It is 1500 acres and is extremely well managed in Hancock county. We managed to take 17 does in 2 days. I saw 9 different bucks including 2 really nice ones.
A biologists assessed the property about 7 or 8 years ago and gave them a number for doe harve s t needs to make the property sustainable. The number was 30 and hasn't changed yet. I never see a drop in numbers out of all the years I have gone. The property has the resources to support great numbers but every year the deer manage to turn their top end food plots to almost dirt fields. All the deer are extremely healthy and out of the 17 does only one was not bread and only 1 had a single fetus. The other 15 had 2 fetuses a piece. This was nothing out of the ordinary but shows the need for this practice. If the does were left unchecked then the herd would suffer.
The reason for this extreme population is because of sound land management. All forms of wildlife prosper extremely well. They did have an extreme coyote problem before but at no time even when their numbers were extremely high did I see them making any affect on deer numbers. If management practices are withheld in all aspects then results will come in the future.
Believe me that I can understand that hunters have a sore spot for the current status of their deer hears but many times a broken management plan that does not involve all aspects and variables then adverse results are going to come about.
QDMA practices have alot of times been just used loosely. Kill the does and get bigger bucks probably was the biggest mind set. Well this honestly doesn't make since to me but a ton of people with small acreage and large acreage did it without research. Now their attitudes have changed and they blame qdma for it. I know alot of people that jumped on this wagon some years ago and will deny that they ever did now.

Milkman · Dec 27, 2014

Milkman said:
Posts on the Woodys/GON deer forum

Group # 1
A good many people have posted concerns here about the declining deer population. IMO this is a very valid concern.

Group # 2
Others have posted that the deer population in their area is still good or even better.

Group # 3
Another smaller group seems to be nonchalant and doesn't give a rip about deer populations as long as they "fill the freezer"

One thing I can foresee is that those in group # 1 & 3 who currently hunt in places with declining populations will not be satisfied with that. They will leave that location. Where will they go ?? They will buy or lease land somewhere that there are deer. This will have a direct effect on the people in group # 2. The lease rates in the higher population areas will go up due to the age old rules of supply and demand. Land with many deer is worth more than land with few deer.

The end result could be disastrous for the deer. We have to police ourselves to save the deer.

Any other thoughts now that season is almost gone in North Ga. ??

kevincox · Dec 27, 2014

Insurance companies should be happy. I don't see very many deer run over by automobiles like I did in the past. I use to see deer everywhere at night on hwy 212 between Milledgeville and Monticello. Now I don't even have to watch for them while driving

Milkman · Apr 11, 2018

elfiii · Apr 11, 2018

Mercy.

Jim Boyd · Apr 11, 2018

I missed this one first time around, I think.

We are “group 2” for sure in our area of SC.

By choice, we limit buck harvest and we have few concerns about how many antlerless deer we harvest. Therein does lie some danger, however - as every antlerless is not female.

We treat a male fawn as “one” of the two bucks each member is allowed. In truth, it is an infraction due to the fact the he would obviously not be 4 points on one side and 15” antler width.

We have been fortunate (or perhaps disciplined) - to my knowledge, we have not accidentally killed a male fawn in several years.

We only have 850 acres and we typically harvest 12-15 does annually - and there appears to be no end in sight to their numbers - or I should say that from what we can see / tell, there has not been a reduction in deer numbers.

I know some folks suffer from a reduced herd and for that, I feel badly for you.

I won’t mention who and in what county but one of my long term members came from a club in Georgia where he saw three deer (yes, 3) in an entire year of hunting. He is a smart and patient hunter, so I don’t think skill was the issue. In fact, this hunter took three does in three days in 2017 - with an arrow. Pretty impressive and I applaud him (but I did get tired of going to fetch them three afternoons in a row - that is cutting into beer:30!).

I could not stomach this situation (extremely low deer numbers) and would be forced to move on (as he did) - which finally loops back around to the original point of this thread.

Best of luck to all.

.

Glynr · Apr 12, 2018

I remember growing up hunting Putnam county government land at the time not many deer at all. If 1 person in 10 or 15 killed in a deer in a season he was the hero for the year. Got a little older moved to Warren county covered up with deer for years. Then more people came and deer disappeared. It has got better the last couple of years so there is hope. I guess the southern boys with plenty of deer has something to look forward to. More of us northern county guys are coming soon. Lot of people can't control themselves. They have to fill their freezers and all their friends freezers.

JB0704 · Apr 12, 2018

Glynr said:
I guess the southern boys with plenty of deer has something to look forward to. More of us northern county guys are coming soon. Lot of people can't control themselves. They have to fill their freezers and all their friends freezers.

Not too long ago on this forum but prior to this thread being posted, the folks who saw a rapid local decline were a minority, and the folks who still had plenty of deer assumed they were superior hunters and the "no deer" folks didn't know how to scout (scouting for deer is not hard, but most folks have gotten into the plant / pour then sit process of hunting). Then, the small pockets of shot out woods got bigger, and it seems the general attitude has changed, which is a good thing. Im seeing a lot more doe restrictions on the lease board, and it seems most clubs are limiting doe harvest in order to avoid going back to the old days. Still, it really only takes a few trigger happy billys managin' as they see fit to ruin a local area for all who hunt it because the deer cross multiple "management zones" every day.

Some additional perspective on deer population

Banned

Banned

Banned

Admin

Deer Farmer Moderator

Senior Member

Banned

Deer Farmer Moderator

Banned

Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Deer Farmer Moderator

Senior Member

Deer Farmer Moderator

Admin

Senior Member

Senior Member

I Gots Goats

Similar threads

Share this page