The Why?

Israel · Jun 10, 2017

formula1 said:
As I was reading Israel's response, a crazy thought came to me and this is it:

We have the testimony of Jesus that said, I saw satan fall like lighting from heaven! Luke 10:18

The event in heaven is also recorded in Isaiah 14. Here is a excerpt:

12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!
13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’
15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit.

An another place we see this played out is here:

Revelation 12
7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

We know that that dragon and his angels fell to the earth that God created. That became his domain. And this is the description of it:

Genesis 1:2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep.

But then God showed up with Light. And in His Light was the creation of man, that is, man from the dust of the earth!

Sorry for the long post, but this was my thought that I envisioned God said to satan at this point:

"You see this dirt (this earth) that I banished you to. Look closely at it for I am going to take this dirt and this dirt will utterly destroy you!"

And everyone, here we all are! Let us be sure that we do know our purpose in Christ, which is to be the dirt, enabled through His calling and our Love for Him, that destroys the principles, power and authorities that were banished here! And how will that happen:

Rev 12:11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.

By Love! Really? Yes, really! Oh, to be mere 'dirt' to set all things back in order! Now that is the 'Why'!

Blessings to all the dirt out there!

Amen!

I sometimes think all of the Bible is from man's part the crying out of Adam for a "do over", and from God's part the patient instruction to that.

A return in plea to the child Adam once was, where through the many lessons our Lord might show the correct order of things...that... "now watch closely and learn" of how and where you got tricked ("these things" Paul writes, "happened to them as types and were written for our admonition").

But we want to know the end. We want to ask "OK, but will the end of my instruction look like, how will "I" appear? In the trueness of all of this?" "What will I be like...when I grow up Daddy?"

And we are given Jesus Christ in, and at which to marvel, taking all the sting and shame out of what once knew being Adam.

gordon 2 · Jul 24, 2017

I'm reading Radical by David Platt. I just finished the chapter Who We Really Are. I plan to read this book to its end.

My general observation so far is that the book is similar with other books by many other pastors and ministers in the "bible belt" of the Southern US.

I read or understand a message such as this: "The evangelizing that some bible believing Christians have received in the past and are receiving now is defective, far from complete and even misguided. Therefore, their( the sheep's) life in Christ, the church, their faith life, could be better, even radically better if they read scripture the way the author reads scripture." The authors of these books and magazines usually have some world travel under their belts which would give the impression real or projected that they come by their understanding of human nature not only from scripture and the community they are from but from the hubbub of foreign travels and missions as well.

I fully expect to read another book someday on the de-radicalization of the church and the believer's faith due in part to the influence of this book for the revisited idea that Jesus was not about little church at all as the book claims but about the individual in any setting or some such thing as, " This time we got the real Jesus".

I write this down not to troll, but out of genuine concern about a people, a culture, a bible believing people, that needs periodic revival and constant vigilance and the "taking back of faith" from some real or perceived contaminant ever present to the church, to the faithful and from/for a pastor's personal faith walk development and the items of it he senses the sheep lack.

Am I the only one to have a concern for this? It seems that every so often someone claims that the church and the faith of believers has lost its saltiness and needs a new sprinkle from someone's new mining of scripture and a take ( and possible fix) on some conflict real or imagined?

I'm not sure I'm ok with this? I'm not sure it edifies the body although I believe it to be well intended.

Artfuldodger · Jul 24, 2017

I think maybe his message of America's materialism and perhaps even the prosperity preachers in lieu of giving to those in need directly as a world view is good.

I'm not sure I agree with his delivery of this message and that this way to give needs to go through the "Church."

gordon 2 · Jul 24, 2017

Artfuldodger said:
I think maybe his message of America's materialism and perhaps even the prosperity preachers in lieu of giving to those in need directly as a world view is good.

I'm not sure I agree with his delivery of this message and that this way to give needs to go through the "Church."

Well Art yes I question his understanding of economics and the uplift that wealth creation in a democratic country gives to all, and especially to the poor.

I'm all for some taking vows of poverty don't get me wrong, but I'm also for those planting larger fields then they need...

I have a different take than the author for example for the reason Jesus tells some to sell everything they own if they want eternal life. It is not a law for all. But it is a caution ( a test) given to a person who calls himself to the service of the Lord, as opposed to being called by Him or to a person seeking eternal life as if it was just an item ( object) of desire as any other might be... ( but I might be totally wrong)...

Artfuldodger · Jul 24, 2017

I guess there is a fine line on exactly what Capitalism and the American Dream accomplishes vs just not working and doing mission work.

I can see both sides of the equation. Would it be better for me to quit working and go help "the World" personally with a hammer and a Bible or stay here working as a Capitalist?

I received an email recently about a guy who had just bought a Corvette. Someone asked, “I wonder how many people could have been fed for the money that sports car cost you?”

The owner went on to explain that it fed the folks who made it. It fed the people that made the tires. It fed the people in the copper mine for the wiring, etc.

Maybe the materialistic owner should have bought a Chevette along with all of the other Capitalist Corvette owners and it would have still fed the same masses worldwide. Then they could have taken the money difference, quit work, and went "worldly" with their hammers and Bibles.
Maybe this is what Platt is talking about. Maybe he just comes off wrong in his explanation of how to do it.

Artfuldodger · Jul 24, 2017

gordon 2 said:
Well Art yes I question his understanding of economics and the uplift that wealth creation in a democratic country gives to all, and especially to the poor.

I'm all for some taking vows of poverty don't get me wrong, but I'm also for those planting larger fields then they need...

I have a different take than the author for example for the reason Jesus tells some to sell everything they own if they want eternal life. It is not a law for all. But it is a caution ( a test) given to a person who calls himself to the service of the Lord, as opposed to being called by Him or to a person seeking eternal life as if it was just and item of desire as any other might be...

Amen! You don't need the book.

gordon 2 · Jul 24, 2017

Artfuldodger said:
I guess there is a fine line on exactly what Capitalism and the American Dream accomplishes vs just not working and doing mission work.

I can see both sides of the equation. Would it be better for me to quit working and go help "the World" personally with a hammer and a Bible or stay here working as a Capitalists?

I received an email recently about a guy who had just bought a Corvette. Someone asked, “I wonder how many people could have been fed for the money that sports car cost you?”

The owner went on to explain that it fed the folks who made it. It fed the people that made the tires. It fed the people in the copper mine for the wiring, etc.

Maybe the materialistic owner should have bought a Chevette along with all of the other Capitalist Corvette owners and it would have still fed the same massed worldwide. Then they could have taken the money difference, quit work, and went "worldly" with their hammers and Bibles.
Maybe this is what Platt is talking about. Maybe he just comes off wrong in his explanation of how to do it.

I will continue reading... As I read him I am aware of my prejudices... and some of other folk... so I'm patient.

SemperFiDawg · Jul 25, 2017

gordon 2 said:
I'm reading Radical by David Platt. I just finished the chapter Who We Really Are.......I read or understand a message such as this: "The evangelizing that some bible believing Christians have received in the past and are receiving now is defective, far from complete and even misguided. Therefore, their( the sheep's) life in Christ, the church, their faith life, could be better, even radically better if they read scripture the way the author reads scripture."

I don't think Platt see's "evangelizing" as the problem (with the exception of when it's used to prop up "The American Way" (individualism, independence, self-reliance, profit centered materialism). Nor does he lay claim to special interpretation of scripture. In the Radical I read he simply asks, "Are we interpreting scripture correctly or through our (opulently rich) cultural lenses?" As I said before. I think he lays out a solid case that the American Way and what Christ taught are antithetical.

Israel · Jul 26, 2017

When we build we discover a thing. It's not a thing as easily grasped in the mind as is made true by experience.

I am persuaded this is the gift to be found in go and preach the gospel to all nations. The instruction to "do" something with this thing we believe we have apprehended in our minds. There's something about a "working through" of a thing made manifest (like kneading yeast into a loaf) that is not quite accomplished by just sprinkling...on the surface.

Otherwise it would have been simple for God to merely sky write "I forgive you all for not knowing what you are doing".

I know "how" to build a porch. We all do. Make it square to the standing structure, plumb and level. But it's really only in the building any of us begin to appreciate the trueness of concepts like square, level, and plumb. We find all sorts of forces at work against these real things. Things not readily seen when we merely say "build it square, level and plumb".

Of course we discover this thing as we "go" in our building. We are the thing being worked on...when we have thought the work was to be elsewhere. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. The eighth of an inch "settled for" there...has become an inch and a half there. The quarter bubble allowed there, an obvious lean later on.

We may even find what we have now built is a shame to the original structure. But this is where another kindness is shown. Another gift is given. "Be zealous therefore, and repent".

We may find a thing unwilling..."But I have already done that!" Or we may be made into a thing that shows repentance is always a gift to embraced, and not a shame broadcast.

Or those eighteen who were killed when the tower of Siloam collapsed on them: Do you think that they were more sinful than all the others living in Jerusalem? No, I tell you. But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

We learn to be careful when beholding collapses.

gordon 2 · Jul 26, 2017

Israel said:
When we build we discover a thing. It's not a thing as easily grasped in the mind as is made true by experience.

I am persuaded this is the gift to be found in go and preach the gospel to all nations. The instruction to "do" something with this thing we believe we have apprehended in our minds. There's something about a "working through" of a thing made manifest (like kneading yeast into a loaf) that is not quite accomplished by just sprinkling...on the surface.

Otherwise it would have been simple for God to merely sky write "I forgive you all for not knowing what you are doing".

I know "how" to build a porch. We all do. Make it square to the standing structure, plumb and level. But it's really only in the building any of us begin to appreciate the trueness of concepts like square, level, and plumb. We find all sorts of forces at work against these real things. Things not readily seen when we merely say "build it square, level and plumb".

Of course we discover this thing as we "go" in our building. We are the thing being worked on...when we have thought the work was to be elsewhere. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. The eighth of an inch "settled for" there...has become an inch and a half there. The quarter bubble allowed there, an obvious lean later on.

We may even find what we have now built is a shame to the original structure. But this is where another kindness is shown. Another gift is given. "Be zealous therefore, and repent".

We may find a thing unwilling..."But I have already done that!" Or we may be made into a thing that shows repentance is always a gift to embraced, and not a shame broadcast.

Or those eighteen who were killed when the tower of Siloam collapsed on them: Do you think that they were more sinful than all the others living in Jerusalem? No, I tell you. But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

We learn to be careful when beholding collapses.

Yes. Yet, who builded the ethiopian eunuch and who builded Philip?

You have a point, however.

PS. What is the perceived collapse? In the world, yes. All kinds. In the church? Hum. Protest upon protest???

Liberty in society due to politics and political philosophies is one thing. Liberty in Christ another.

For some the cart before the ox and others the ox ahead of the cart and others both--perhaps. We are to times of both I think and we always were---Philip the politician and Philip the minister, his offices opened to saints and sinners eager of their happiness. I would agree also that for some their outlook is and seemingly can only be disparate.

Israel · Jul 26, 2017

gordon 2 said:
Yes. Yet, who builded the ethiopian eunuch and who builded Philip?You have a point, however.

PS. What is the perceived collapse? In the world, yes. All kinds. In the church? Hum. Protest upon protest???

Liberty in society due to politics and political philosophies is one thing. Liberty in Christ another.

For some the cart before the ox and others the ox ahead of the cart and others both--perhaps. We are to times of both I think and we always were---Philip the politician and Philip the minister, his offices opened to saints and sinners eager of their happiness. I would agree also that for some their outlook is and seemingly can only be disparate.

amen...the One who builds us...even as we "go".

collapse?...all that is not of Christ's building.

we could easily be remiss to miss this gift:

But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

It's a gift to be able to heed.

gordon 2 · Jul 27, 2017

Problem:

According to Jesus, one day not just a few but many will be shocked, __eternally shocked__ to find that they were not in the kingdom of God after all. Page 38 Radical David Platt.

Remedy:

This is why we must avoid cheap caricatures of Christianity that fail to exalt the revelation of God in his Word. This why you and I cannot settle for anything less that God-centered, Christ-exalting, self-denying gospel. Page 39, Radical David Platt.

I pray that we will be a people who refuse to gorge our spiritual stomachs on entertaining pleasures of this world, because we have chosen to find our satisfaction in the eternal treasure of his Word. Page 40, Radical David Platt.

Artfuldodger · Jul 27, 2017

gordon 2 said:
Problem:

According to Jesus, one day not just a few but many will be shocked, __eternally shocked__ to find that they were not in the kingdom of God after all. Page 38 Radical David Platt.

Remedy:

This is why we must avoid cheap caricatures of Christianity that fail to exalt the revelation of God in his Word. This why you and I cannot settle for anything less that God-centered, Christ-exalting, self-denying gospel. Page 39, Radical David Platt.

I pray that we will be a people who refuse to gorge our spiritual stomachs on entertaining pleasures of this world, because we have chosen to find our satisfaction in the eternal treasure of his Word. Page 40, Radical David Platt.

I wonder why or what reason those folks who thought they were in won't be? What reason does the one given by Platt mean?
Seriously I've always wondered why someone would believe they have salvation only to find out later they didn't.
Maybe they just thought they were elected. Maybe they just kinda sorta believed Jesus died for their sins.

gordon 2 · Jul 28, 2017

Artfuldodger said:
I wonder why or what reason those folks who thought they were in won't be? What reason does the one given by Platt mean?
Seriously I've always wondered why someone would believe they have salvation only to find out later they didn't.
Maybe they just thought they were elected. Maybe they just kinda sorta believed Jesus died for their sins.

His point is that "the american dream radically differs from the call of Jesus and the essence of the gospel."
The problem: " reliance on our own abilities" vs "trust in the power of God."

So I suppose, if I understand correctly, that those who believe they have salvation and don't are those who rely on their own abilities to the exclusion of trusting in the power of God.

Artfuldodger · Jul 28, 2017

For some reason I doubt that is David Platt's belief. What you are presenting is call "easy believism" or "free grace." I'm pretty sure Platt follows the "lordship salvation" path.

There is another book he wrote called "Follow Me: A Call to Die"

I would assume the reason Platt feels that many will be shocked has nothing to do with "because they didn't put all their trust in the Cross" and has more to do with not feeding the poor and helping the sick. He actually thinks it's the ones who didn't use their on abilities are the ones who Jesus said, "I never knew you."

I'm not saying he's wrong but at least I know what the man is preaching.

gordon 2 · Jul 28, 2017

I know that the sinner's prayer is not a trite prayer for some pilgrims. This I know... oh this I know...!

That anyone would say that it is a sure fireproof prayer to avoid the hot place... this I have never known, ever! ( However I don't doubt that some eccentrics might have said it.)

So his spiritual experience and life is different than mine. And lastly, the rigor Jesus asked of the original apostles or the apostles of today... does it follow that it is a rule for all Christians? I don't think so...

Do the Christians today experience the protest of old wine skins suffering new wine as was the case with the early apostles? I don't. I think his whole syllogistic might be out of context... although despite this he comes to some conclusions ( considerations) that I am sympathetic with.

gordon 2 · Jul 29, 2017

So I have been viewing Platt's vedios. I conclude that he is a creation of exceptionalism ( City on the Hill) and a prophet to it just as much as he is a disciple of Jesus. The two combined make for his brand of ministry.

SemperFiDawg · Jul 29, 2017

gordon 2 said:
So I have been viewing Platt's vedios. I conclude that he is a creation of exceptionalism ( City on the Hill) and a prophet to it just as mush as he is a disciple of Jesus. The two combined make for his brand of ministry.

exceptionalism ( City on the Hill)

What does this mean? It's a new expression to me so I can't understand your post.

I thought medicine had a lot of foreign nomenclature. Now not so much.

gordon 2 · Jul 29, 2017

SemperFiDawg said:
What does this mean? It's a new expression to me so I can't understand your post.

I thought medicine had a lot of foreign nomenclature. Now not so much.

Here's a link on Exceptionalism. Scrool down to Puritian roots and
"city on the hill".https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

It is not uncommon in american lingo...

One could make arguments that some of the roots of the term are antagonistic to one another. Nevertheless... I think in religio-spiritual terms the reason some ministers in the US tend to be perhaps more prophetic regards the nation is due to american excetionalism... which I would point out is similar to Isreal's exceptionalism as the chosen people and their need of prophets to the nation.

In other nations it seems to me that Christian prophets build up the body of the church, speak into people's lives etc.. independent of the nation as opposed to the american tradition regards this ministry... What do you think? Also the word mush in my original comment on exceptionalism should read much instead.

gordon 2 · Jul 30, 2017

The Why?

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