Been a while

hobbs27 said:

Read the entire chapter. It's not about us. Jesus was leaving them.. Sending them a comforter so they would not be orphans while he was gone.. 30-33....70ad, yet He was going to return to them.. Not us, not in our future.

You should really learn to comprehend scripture if you're going to dismiss it.

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"Read the entire chapter" "Read the Bible in it's entirety" "It's not about us"
Now you are making some sense.

hobbs27 said:

Read the entire chapter. It's not about us. Jesus was leaving them.. Sending them a comforter so they would not be orphans while he was gone.. 30-33....70ad, yet He was going to return to them.. Not us, not in our future.

You should really learn to comprehend scripture if you're going to dismiss it.

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So you say. The passage itself doesn't make any mention of his return let alone in 70 AD. It says what it says. In one translation he who believes. In another whosoever. You want it to only apply to the disciples. You need it to say that for the obvious reason you want to find a way out of the scripture being demonstrably false. But the language used doesn't mean only the disciples any more than 5:24 which you dodged means only the audience he was speaking to.

atlashunter said:

So you say. The passage itself doesn't make any mention of his return let alone in 70 AD. It says what it says. In one translation he who believes. In another whosoever. You want it to only apply to the disciples. You need it to say that for the obvious reason you want to find a way out of the scripture being demonstrably false. But the language used doesn't mean only the disciples any more than 5:24 which you dodged means only the audience he was speaking to.

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You're right, it doesn't say 70 ad. It does say He was going to return to them..

John 14:28 28 You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.

Now can you explain how. I can say to you Atlas. ". I will be going to bed after this comment, but I will return later to respond to you"

Can this in any way shape or form mean Im actually speaking to your offspring thousands of years from now, and not you ?

hobbs27 said:

You're right, it doesn't say 70 ad. It does say He was going to return to them..

John 14:28 28 You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.

Now can you explain how. I can say to you Atlas. ". I will be going to bed after this comment, but I will return later to respond to you"

Can this in any way shape or form mean Im actually speaking to your offspring thousands of years from now, and not you ?

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That's not what it says. Don't draw some hypothetical analogy that says something different than what the scripture says. The Greek "ho" describing "the one", "he who", or "whosoever" is identical to the Greek used in John 5:24. So you tell me if you think John 5:24 doesn't apply to people living today.

atlashunter said:

That's not what it says. Don't draw some hypothetical analogy that says something different than what the scripture says. The Greek "ho" describing "the one", "he who", or "whosoever" is identical to the Greek used in John 5:24. So you tell me if you think John 5:24 doesn't apply to people living today.

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John 5:24 does not apply to us today.

hobbs27 said:

John 5:24 does not apply to us today.

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Thank you. And why does it not apply?

atlashunter said:

Thank you. And why does it not apply?

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This message was to the Jews , Jesus was ministering to about the coming judgment. (70ad), They were: through faith in Him leaving the covenant of sin and death, IE. Old covenant, and coming into the covenant of grace and eternal life. IE New covenant.

We are not of the Old covenant, therefore we don't pass from death unto life as they were doing.

So you're saying those living today will not face judgment? Or they will face judgment but cannot be saved? Do all people living today have eternal life regardless of belief? Or eternal life isn't attainable for anyone?

j_seph said:

I know of 3 people who prayed that they would not cry, tear up one went for 2 years after that and never cried about anything. The other a year and the other 10 months.
They normally would cry about everytime they prayed, preached, or testified.
Did they convince their-self to not cry over anything at all for that amount of time? Not IMO

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I see why religion has a toe hold. This has to be one of the more ridiculous things I've read lately.

hobbs27 said:

I don't think you should accuse anyone of being a liar when you don't even understand the premise.

First.. Those that believe in Jesus would do the works Jesus had done... Secondly He said to His disciples.. I say to you... So Jesus is telling them, of you that believe, you also shall do the works I have done, and they did!

Also... Whatever they (His disciples) asked in His name, He did for them.

You must consider audience relevance, because what we are reading here was a conversation between Christ and His disciples.. Not Christ to the whole world. There was a time in which Christ went away to prepare a place. In that time He sent a comforter, and He gave spiritual gifts, we read all about it in Acts, but that time has expired and is no longer needed.

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Ain't it funny that the Bible needs translating, even after it is translated to English? And isn't it a hoot that everyone believes their twist is the most accurate?

hobbs27 said:

This message was to the Jews , Jesus was ministering to about the coming judgment. (70ad), They were: through faith in Him leaving the covenant of sin and death, IE. Old covenant, and coming into the covenant of grace and eternal life. IE New covenant.

We are not of the Old covenant, therefore we don't pass from death unto life as they were doing.

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So who was the antichrist?
Where is all the world peace?

atlashunter said:

So you're saying those living today will not face judgment? Or they will face judgment but cannot be saved? Do all people living today have eternal life regardless of belief? Or eternal life isn't attainable for anyone?

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There's no pending judgment. All people do not have eternal life, it is attainable though.

Revelation 22: 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

bullethead said:

So who was the antichrist?
Where is all the world peace?

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Nero fits the description of the anti Christ. John said of the sign of the anti Christ that they knew they were in the last hour because many anti Christ were present then.

1John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour


World peace? Maybe you should point to the verse saying that and let's examine it. The JWs I debate with love that topic.

hobbs27 said:

There's no pending judgment. All people do not have eternal life, it is attainable though.

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You inserted pending in there which is not what I asked. Are people living today ever going to face judgment?

I assume you would also say not all people from Jesus generation had eternal life but according to John it was attainable for them through belief. How is eternal life attainable for people in this generation?

atlashunter said:

You inserted pending in there which is not what I asked. Are people living today ever going to face judgment?

I assume you would also say not all people from Jesus generation had eternal life but according to John it was attainable for them through belief. How is eternal life attainable for people in this generation?

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I inserted pending, because judgment can and is used differently by people. There's no judgment coming as God's wrath on mankind. There's no judgment coming as man standing in front of God and being divided up as sheep or goats.

If you consider a man taking of the water of life which is freely given to obtain eternal life a judgment.. Then I would accept that. The verses I posted above in Revelation 22 is how man obtains eternal life.

hobbs27 said:

I inserted pending, because judgment can and is used differently by people. There's no judgment coming as God's wrath on mankind. There's no judgment coming as man standing in front of God and being divided up as sheep or goats.

If you consider a man taking of the water of life which is freely given to obtain eternal life a judgment.. Then I would accept that. The verses I posted above in Revelation 22 is how man obtains eternal life.

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I'm asking about your understanding so would really prefer to have that direct in plain language rather than reference to another scripture that is left open to interpretation when we've already seen your interpretation of scripture can be rather unconventional. Based on the scripture you cited is it your view that a nonbeliever who follows "his commandments" (vague as to which commandments) will have eternal life?

You indicated before that there is no hot place of torment. So how does this work? People die and there is no judgment, they just cease to exist if they didn't acquire eternal life while those who did acquire eternal life go to heaven?

atlashunter said:

I'm asking about your understanding so would really prefer to have that direct in plain language rather than reference to another scripture that is left open to interpretation when we've already seen your interpretation of scripture can be rather unconventional. Based on the scripture you cited is it your view that a nonbeliever who follows "his commandments" (vague as to which commandments) will have eternal life?

You indicated before that there is no hot place of torment. So how does this work? People die and there is no judgment, they just cease to exist if they didn't acquire eternal life while those who did acquire eternal life go to heaven?

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I think most Christians experience something just a little differently . It's a personal experience and just what is needed to enter into a covenental relationship with God. So I could give my experience, but not base everyone else's on that. I can say there was a drawing of spiritual nature, and I can say, I honestly believe I could have turned away from it, but I didn't. Since that time, spiritually I have received confirmation after confirmation of being in covenant with God.

I don't believe scripture is explaining Adam as being the very first human on earth. Adam was the first man brought into covenant with God, he was the first to become a Son of God. He became a Son through adoption.

In the day Adam sinned he died . In other words, he lost son ship and became a servant. All Adams offspring were servants of God through the entire Old covenant. It took God's only begotten Son to fix Adams error. At the Resurrection of the dead ones, the Old Testament saints received eternal life and Son ship through the blood of Christ.

The Old covenant servants in the time of Christ ministry were receiving sonship through faith. And they were about (Melo) to receive the promises to Abraham. The Kingdom, eternal life, etc. They were establishing the New Covenant and witnessing the vanishing of the Old.

Now it is established, everything is done.


Ephesians 3:20-21King James Version (KJV)

20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

John 3:16 answers your question on the eternal condition of non believers. They perish.

I don't see answers to my questions so let's try again. Communication will be much better without symbolic language or drawn out explanations going back to Genesis. The questions are concise and straight forward. Would be nice if the answers were as well. Thanks.

Based on the scripture you cited is it your view that a nonbeliever who follows "his commandments" (vague as to which commandments) will have eternal life?

You indicated before that there is no hot place of torment. So how does this work? People die and there is no judgment, they just cease to exist if they didn't acquire eternal life while those who did acquire eternal life go to heaven?

You say those who don't get eternal life perish. The traditional Christian understanding is that means they go to the hot place. What does it mean to you? They cease to exist? Or something else?

Atlas. A non believer cannot follow His commandments. They have never began to.
Non believers do not have eternal life.

I agree and disagree on your statement about he11 being a traditional Christian understanding. It is traditional if you go back to the fourth century teachings. From the fourth century all the way to the beginning of the Bible it's not a traditional view. There's no scriptural basis for it, there's no word for it in scripture... It doesn't exist in scripture.

So either you are a child of God and have obtained eternal life in the spiritual realm, or you're just a material being and will die and perish as God's natural order of this world dictates.

In reality, everyone gets what they think is coming to them. Non believers get eternal death, believers have eternal life. Unless of course, someone thinks they get eternal life by other means than being in Christ.

welderguy said:

You know,...without realizing it, I believe you demonstrated,in just a few posts, the strict exclusiveness of faith, prayer, and election for the chosen people of God. Amazing!
...and even alluded to His vengeance and wrath toward the non-elect.

Good work!!

Who says God doesn't use the unbeliever for His glory?

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Wow. Your thinking is MESSED UP.

I can't believe I've given you this gift and you've refused it.