Is Baptism a requirement for salvation?

farmasis said:

I guess you think being born of water is baptism.

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Of course -- as did every Christian on the planet before the mid-1500's. As Tertullian said in the passage I quoted earlier:

"Unless a man have been reborn of water and Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of the heavens," has tied faith to the necessity of baptism.

farmasis said:

Matt. 28
<SUP>18</SUP> Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. <SUP id=en-NIV-24215 class=versenum>19</SUP> Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Where is salvation here??

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After baptism.

farmasis said:

Mark 16:
<SUP id=en-NIV-24890 class=versenum>16</SUP> Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

What condemns a person?

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Disbelief.

Now, look at the word in blue below and tell me what it means in English.

farmasis said:

Mark 16:
<SUP id=en-NIV-24890 class=versenum>16</SUP> Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

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farmasis said:

What is amazing to you? The 85% that disagrees with you?

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When this thread started, I actually believed the "no" votes would be at least 90%.

Ya'll win. I'm done.

Forgive me but i didnt read the whole thread (Its very long) but i feel im still good to post my position to the OPs question.

To spend eternity with our Creator, one thing and one thing only is required....To believe (truely believe in your heart of hearts) that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Almighty God of this universe and that God came to this earth in the form of man, Jesus, to take the punishment for all sin so that we can accept Him and His atonement in order to spend eternity with Him. This is summed up in the message of salvation in John 3:16. If somebody insists that not being Baptised will mean being eternally seperated from God....there is not Scripture to support that and you are baseing Salvation on works, not Grace.

That is just a "yes/no" answer to the question but after the point of salvation, there are things that we do in obedience to the Lord...one being Baptism.

Baptism symbolizes the Blood of Christ washing away all our sin and transgression. We do this in obedience and excitement! Once filled with the Spirit, we take on a different mind-set and experience and view life in a completely different understanding. I cant see a new believer having a problem with it, to be honest, but like i said before, based off Gods Word, the acceptance of Christ as the Savior, Atoner, King, and Lord over their life is what is necessary to spend eternity in Glory with Christ our King, period. Now, if the Spirit has convicted a Christian to make the public profession of faith in Christ and they do not, then to that believer, there is sin and the believer will either turn to the Lord in obedience or will have to give account to the Father why they did not be Baptised but they will not be eternally seperated from Christ.

Senoj said:

Forgive me but i didnt read the whole thread (Its very long) but i feel im still good to post my position to the OPs question.

To spend eternity with our Creator, one thing and one thing only is required....To believe (truely believe in your heart of hearts) that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Almighty God of this universe and that God came to this earth in the form of man, Jesus, to take the punishment for all sin so that we can accept Him and His atonement in order to spend eternity with Him. This is summed up in the message of salvation in John 3:16. If somebody insists that not being Baptised will mean being eternally seperated from God....there is not Scripture to support that and you are baseing Salvation on works, not Grace.

That is just a "yes/no" answer to the question but after the point of salvation, there are things that we do in obedience to the Lord...one being Baptism.

Baptism symbolizes the Blood of Christ washing away all our sin and transgression. We do this in obedience and excitement! Once filled with the Spirit, we take on a different mind-set and experience and view life in a completely different understanding. I cant see a new believer having a problem with it, to be honest, but like i said before, based off Gods Word, the acceptance of Christ as the Savior, Atoner, King, and Lord over their life is what is necessary to spend eternity in Glory with Christ our King, period. Now, if the Spirit has convicted a Christian to make the public profession of faith in Christ and they do not, then to that believer, there is sin and the believer will either turn to the Lord in obedience or will have to give account to the Father why they did not be Baptised but they will not be eternally seperated from Christ.

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Please let me ask you one question, and the question isn't about baptism.

First, you mentioned John 3:16, a familiar verse to all of us.
Over two years after Jesus spoke the words of John 3:16 Jesus said the following "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."(Mark 16:16).
Now follow me here. In this great commission verse Jesus again says "believing" will save a person. But Jesus now goes further and institutes baptism. He said 'has believed and has been baptized' shall be saved.

Now please keep following me. In Acts 2 the apostles have the very first opportunity to offer Jesus Christ to unbelievers in the new church.
When these first hearers are presented the gospel, they ask "What shall we do". Peter, in the power of the Holy Spirit, says "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit".
So here in Acts 2 Peter says: "Repent, be baptized, your sins will be forgiven, and you'll receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Those are the reasons I don't think excluding baptism should even be discussed.
What's the purpose in discussing it's exclusion.

Oh, I almost forgot my primary point.
Jesus said what he said in John 3:16.
He spoke the words of Mark 16:16 also.

Why is it that the words of John 3:16 are supremely important, but Jesus' words of Mark 16 are not?
Why can I deny the words of one, but stand firm on the word of the other? Isn't that picking and choosing?

All of the above are reasons that I will never ever claim that excluding baptism would be acceptable by Jesus Christ.

So, what do you think?
Do you at least see my point of view?

Absolutely, i do understand your point of view. I think that what you said about not even discussing baptism being excluded is the correct thing to do unless for the purpose of witnessing to an unbeliever some how brings it about in a general circumstance. As far as that goes, i believe (again unless necessary for witnessing), there are many pety issues that among believers are useless to debate over. I guess there are several angles to take on that question, such as the motives behind asking it so i just gave my thought.

For me, some things are understood through the Spirit leading and instructing us. Often, Jesus spoke in parables and figuratively as well. When some things are taken literal in scripture, the message is not the same as intended. Now, this is fragile ground because it takes discerning thinking in us through the Spirit and also spiritual maturity to understand these so that a non believer or babe in Christ is not misled. The last thing i ever want to find myself doing is takeing Scripture out of context by leaving out or adding somthing that is not already there. In some of the verses reguarding being baptised, i believe it is not necessarily speaking of the act of being baptised (although some it is) but rather is the act of our minds, hearts and souls undergoing spiritual cleansing through the renewing and spiritual resurrection that comes from turning away from the old man to the new man in Christ Jesus. Its my belief that not being baptised will not cause a person to spend eternity seperated from Christ, so that was just my response to the question but in no case would i support the idea of not being baptised. Its not Biblical and there should not be a reason for a follower of Christ to entertain the idea.

That said, i want to make clear that i feel after accepting Christ, Baptism should definately take place to honor and be obedient to the Lord. It is a wonderful act and form of worship. I would not support not doing it and in some cases, if a believer has gone astray and turned from the Lords will in their life, then returns in repentence, i feel baptism is a wonderful act to represent cleansing and chooseing to step back in the Will of God.

Ronnie T said:

....Jesus said what he said in John 3:16.
He spoke the words of Mark 16:16 also.

Why is it that the words of John 3:16 are supremely important, but Jesus' words of Mark 16 are not?
Why can I deny the words of one, but stand firm on the word of the other? Isn't that picking and choosing?

All of the above are reasons that I will never ever claim that excluding baptism would be acceptable by Jesus Christ.

So, what do you think?
Do you at least see my point of view?

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I think people like to Cherry Pick. Funny how some take the Bible literally, yet skip over certain parts...interesting...

dawg2 said:

I think people like to Cherry Pick. Funny how some take the Bible literally, yet skip over certain parts...interesting...

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Everyone on here is accused of that from time to time, especially when someone does not agree with another's discernment of a scripture. It is easy to say you are skipping over or cherry picking something even while you (not you in particular) do it yourself.

Only do what you hear the Lord telling you to do.
But if you don't hear him at all...



he's waiting to speak to you

Israel said:

Only do what you hear the Lord telling you to do.
But if you don't hear him at all...

he's waiting to speak to you

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Spurgeon:
“A thing which looks to be unreasonable and seems to be unprofitable, being commanded by God, is law, is law to me. If my Master had told me to pick up six stones and lay them in a row I would do it, without demanding of him, ‘What good will it do?’ Cui bono? Is no fit question for soldiers of Jesus. The very simplicity and apparent uselessness of the ordinance should make the believer say, ‘Therefore I do it because it becomes the better test to me of my obedience to my Master.’” When you tell your servant to do something, and he cannot comprehend it, if he turns round and says, “Please, sir, what for?” you are quite clear that he hardly understands the relation between master and servant. So when God tells me to do a thing, if I say, “What for?” I cannot have taken the place which Faith ought to occupy, which is that of simple obedience to whatever the Lord hath said. Baptism is commanded, and Faith obeys because it is commanded, and thus takes her proper place.

Ronnie T said:

Spurgeon:
“A thing which looks to be unreasonable and seems to be unprofitable, being commanded by God, is law, is law to me. If my Master had told me to pick up six stones and lay them in a row I would do it, without demanding of him, ‘What good will it do?’ Cui bono? Is no fit question for soldiers of Jesus. The very simplicity and apparent uselessness of the ordinance should make the believer say, ‘Therefore I do it because it becomes the better test to me of my obedience to my Master.’” When you tell your servant to do something, and he cannot comprehend it, if he turns round and says, “Please, sir, what for?” you are quite clear that he hardly understands the relation between master and servant. So when God tells me to do a thing, if I say, “What for?” I cannot have taken the place which Faith ought to occupy, which is that of simple obedience to whatever the Lord hath said. Baptism is commanded, and Faith obeys because it is commanded, and thus takes her proper place.

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Amen well put.

Did anybody dispute baptism was not commanded?

farmasis said:

Did anybody dispute baptism was not commanded?

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Does not Christ demand that we follow his commands, if the answer is no then forget baptism, if it yes then we must quitely and slowly think to ourselves

Did the apostles in all the the conversions in acts tell the people to be baptized.

After Paul was thrown from his ride on the road and met with Jesus like no one ever had, didn't he follow the lords command and go into the city and wait for the man of got to tell him what he should do.

Didn't the man of God meet Paul and answered his question when he ask "what must I do to be saved"

He was told to repent and be baptised for the remission of his sins.

Was all that necessary?

Yes, and I tell you why, Christ commanded it. Its that simple.

Please will you just come out and admit this one thing.

Did Jesus and his INSPIRED FOLLOWERS, command batism? Yes or NO

Is it necessary to follow the commands of God?

thedeacon said:

Does not Christ demand that we follow his commands, if the answer is no then forget baptism, if it yes then we must quitely and slowly think to ourselves

Did the apostles in all the the conversions in acts tell the people to be baptized.

After Paul was thrown from his ride on the road and met with Jesus like no one ever had, didn't he follow the lords command and go into the city and wait for the man of got to tell him what he should do.

Didn't the man of God meet Paul and answered his question when he ask "what must I do to be saved"

He was told to repent and be baptised for the remission of his sins.

Was all that necessary?

Yes, and I tell you why, Christ commanded it. Its that simple.

Please will you just come out and admit this one thing.

Did Jesus and his INSPIRED FOLLOWERS, command batism? Yes or NO

Is it necessary to follow the commands of God?

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Yes!...I am not sure but I don't think anyone disputes this is a command.

Necessary to follow the commands of God....?

Necessary for what?

For salvation... NO!

to please God and be obedient to God... yes.

For salvation...NO!

We are to commanded to go to all nations making disciples, baptizing them, and teaching them to follow and obey God.
..if we aren't missionaries.. is our salvation void?
..if we do not teach..is our salvation void?

We are commanded to love one another..if we don't, are we unsaved?

Other commandments given by Jesus..

Forgive one another, wash each other's feet, pray privately, show your good works, partake of the lord's supper, do not call anyone on earth your father, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, comfort the distressed....we could go on and on.

So, are all of these required for salvation?

Here's a key difference.........

Some (me) don't look as baptism as a "command" of Christ and the apostles.

"Baptize" is what the apostles were told to do as they taught the Gospel.
"Be Baptized" was not a commandment, but rather the response when someone asked: "what shall we do".

It's not: Do not kill, do not commit adultry, and do get baptized.
It is: Why can't this person be baptized?

Baptism and sin?
Paul was told to 'arise and be baptized, washing away your sins.'

The Bible says that in baptism your daughter put on Christ. Clothed with Christ.

Eph 1:13+14

1gr8bldr said:

Eph 1:13+14

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Ephesians 4:5

.

Ronnie T said:

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1gr8bldr said:

Eph 1:13+14

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Hello Ronnie, I added this verse to the mix as food for thought. Like yourself, I don't see baptismal as a command so I pointed out a verse that seems to support my thoughts. Point is that the Spirit was given after having "believed" with no mention of baptismal although some could be justified by saying it was implied.

1gr8bldr said:

Hello Ronnie, I added this verse to the mix as food for thought. Like yourself, I don't see baptismal as a command so I pointed out a verse that seems to support my thoughts. Point is that the Spirit was given after having "believed" with no mention of baptismal although some could be justified by saying it was implied.

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Okay, I gotcha.
It was more than implied.
Long before Paul wrote this letter to the Ephesians, Peter told the very first Christian,
"Repent and be baptized and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

This brings up a good point of how important baptism is for a person coming to Christ, but how the emphasis after baptism goes completely to God and God's work of mercy and grace.

For me, I say, according to my understanding of the scriptures, that I was baptized because the Bible instructed me to.
But after baptism, I must never lay claim to having any part in saving myself. I am saved by the grace and mercy of God.

And with that, I'm hopefully going to bow out of this discussion since I've already made over a 100 comments.