Texas church shooter was a militant atheist

Spotlite · Nov 14, 2017

WaltL1 said:
And how is it for believers? Different somehow?
Consider ~35,000 denominations....

You seem to be under the impression that "believing" somehow allows you to understand it. As though there is some particular understanding that has been proven to be the correct one and if you would just believe well then you could understand it too.
That is just not supported by the facts.

I'm simply talking about a spiritual discernment that a believer should have where a non believer is not expected to have......due to lack of belief only and nothing to do with ability to learn. If you have that discernment, you should understand spiritual what the scripture means.

I'm well aware that every believer doesn't agree on a scripture 100%, but who's right and wrong is a separate topic.

WaltL1 · Nov 14, 2017

SemperFiDawg said:
To be exact you said

which is not one in the same. My entire point is, saying atheism has no precepts is patently false BECAUSE presupposing there is no God doesn’t alleviate the Athiest believer from having to answer the BIG questions of life.
If creation isn’t true then evolution must be. Evolution in turn has it’s own precepts.

Another is the moral law. If there is no Moral Law Giver then there is no moral law. The consequences of that frees the Athiest to determine his own moral, amoral, or
immoral precepts for living his life , but precepts they are. Make no mistake about that. In fact it could be accurately said that the only precepts That cant flow from Athiest are those that necessitate a God for their presupposition. Sorry if I was too dense to convey this more clearly.

If creation isn’t true then evolution must be

Well then you just proved creation false because its a proven fact that things have evolved.
Thats quite an accomplishment and you did it so easily. Even us A/As haven't been able to do that.

If there is no Moral Law Giver then there is no moral law

.
Which is why man set up systems and guidelines/laws of what is morally acceptable action as determined by the society they live in. You know how you disagreed with the whole bakers being fined for not baking gay folks a wedding cake? That was it in action.

The consequences of that frees the Athiest to determine his own moral, amoral, or
immoral precepts for living his life

See above.

atlashunter · Nov 14, 2017

Spotlite said:
For the Christian, the purpose is to cover our sins. The only way to the Father is through the blood of Jesus. If Christianity is immoral for going through the blood of Jesus, we will just have to continue being immoral. We didn't set or choose that path.

You didn't, but someone did. Maybe it has something to do with the origins of this deity you're worshiping.

Spotlite said:
I see what you're getting at, but it's not as you're saying it to be. This is the same as what I asked you before, would you lay down your life to save your family? You are indeed sacrificing yourself but you are not a "human sacrifice" in the sense of just slaughtering a human. A better word than "sacrifice" might have should been considered, but I didn't write it.

For the non believer, it is just a matter of how they understand it when they study it.

We would have to flesh out the analogy in more detail to make it truly comparable but I doubt it would get us anywhere.

WaltL1 · Nov 14, 2017

Spotlite said:
I'm simply talking about a spiritual discernment that a believer should have where a non believer is not expected to have......due to lack of belief only and nothing to do with ability to learn. If you have that discernment, you should understand spiritual what the scripture means.

I'm well aware that every believer doesn't agree on a scripture 100%, but who's right and wrong is a separate topic.

Just a thought -
You know how its common practice to get advice/councel/judgements etc from people who are NOT involved..... because when you ARE involved (believe) you often can't discern the situation clearly...........

red neck richie · Nov 14, 2017

WaltL1 said:
Just a thought -
You know how its common practice to get advice/councel/judgements etc from people who are NOT involved..... because when you ARE involved (believe) you often can't discern the situation clearly...........

Nonsense Walt. And I don't get advice either. I just call it as I see it and share my experiences. I do agree with Atlas for once though. I doubt any analogy on this thread is going to get us anywhere.

hummerpoo · Nov 14, 2017

WaltL1 said:
Just a thought -
You know how its common practice to get advice/councel/judgements etc from people who are NOT involved..... because when you ARE involved (believe) you often can't discern the situation clearly...........

Yah; and just as true when the parenthetical is unbeliever.

Spotlite · Nov 14, 2017

WaltL1 said:
Just a thought -
You know how its common practice to get advice/councel/judgements etc from people who are NOT involved..... because when you ARE involved (believe) you often can't discern the situation clearly...........

And should we reverse the roles, not involved (non believer) would the same concept apply?

In most cases I would think so, but when it comes to spiritual discernment, I feel like the believer and the non believer both have no areas where they would reasonably council with one another.

bullethead · Nov 14, 2017

Spotlite said:
And should we reverse the roles, not involved (non believer) would the same concept apply?

In most cases I would think so, but when it comes to spiritual discernment, I feel like the believer and the non believer both have no areas where they would reasonably council with one another.

Christian spiritual discernment? Or all spiritual discernment?

Spotlite · Nov 14, 2017

bullethead said:
What bullet said was it was immoral back then because the bible is totally man made and the writings reflect the morals of the times. No god involved.
Are you agreeing with that?

Partially, I agree that the writings reflect the morals of the times. I disagree with no God involved.

red neck richie · Nov 14, 2017

Spotlite said:
Partially, I agree that the writings reflect the morals of the times. I disagree with no God involved.

Of course. That is logical. Men can only write what they understand. Based on learning and experience.

bullethead · Nov 14, 2017

Spotlite said:
Partially, I agree that the writings reflect the morals of the times. I disagree with no God involved.

So those writings are NOT the literal word of god?

Spotlite · Nov 14, 2017

bullethead said:
Christian spiritual discernment? Or all spiritual discernment?

Good point, considering that worshippers of God and satanic worshippers are both spiritual events. But for this discussion, the example would be Christian and the atheist. When it comes to spiritual discernment, I don't feel that there are any areas where the two could reasonably council with one another. And I'm basing that solely on the idea that in order to council, you're seeking advice and the two groups do not share a common ground, spiritually. And this is just my opinion only.

bullethead · Nov 14, 2017

red neck richie said:
Of course. That is logical. Men can only write what they understand. Based on learning and experience.

I'll say it again, so those writings are NOT the literal word of god?

red neck richie · Nov 14, 2017

bullethead said:
I'll say it again, so those writings are NOT the literal word of god?

Men cannot ever totally understand the word of God. As we are of the flesh.

bullethead · Nov 14, 2017

Spotlite said:
Good point, considering that worshippers of God and satanic worshippers are both spiritual events. But for this discussion, the example would be Christian and the atheist. When it comes to spiritual discernment, I don't feel that there are any areas where the two could reasonably council with one another. And I'm basing that solely on the idea that in order to council, you're seeking advice and the two groups do not share a common ground, spiritually. And this is just my opinion only.

Makes me wonder if your spiritual discernment agrees with all christians spiritual discernment.
I mean it would HAVE to being that an outside force that is SPIRITUAL would be giving you all the same mesaage and obvious discernment capabilities.
Right??

Spotlite · Nov 14, 2017

bullethead said:
So those writings are NOT the literal word of god?

Those words are God inspired.

red neck richie · Nov 14, 2017

bullethead said:
Makes me wonder if your spiritual discernment agrees with all christians spiritual discernment.
I mean it would HAVE to being that an outside force that is SPIRITUAL would be giving you all the same mesaage and obvious discernment capabilities.
Right??

No. Its a personal relationship. Everyone is different.

atlashunter · Nov 14, 2017

Spotlite said:
I'm simply talking about a spiritual discernment that a believer should have where a non believer is not expected to have......due to lack of belief only and nothing to do with ability to learn. If you have that discernment, you should understand spiritual what the scripture means.

I'm well aware that every believer doesn't agree on a scripture 100%, but who's right and wrong is a separate topic.

If your claim that belief confers some special discernment was true then one would expect that discernment to unify believers under a common understanding. Yet we don't see that. I think that was Walts point.

The problem is not that I don't understand the claims of Christianity. I do understand. I just don't find them persuasive or moral. You think the murder of someone who lived 2,000 years ago absolves you of your wrongdoings and me of mine if we but believe in Jesus. I find that claim absurd and morally reprehensible. Not because I don't understand it but because I do.

oldfella1962 · Nov 14, 2017

the writings are inspired by god. Thus if things are embellished or inaccurate it's only because the enthusiasm of the writers got a little out of hand. But they meant well, and if it wins more converts in the long run, mission accomplished.

You think I'm kidding, research how inspired by god is pretty much a license for writing whatever you want and nobody has a problem with it. This makes it easier to say "well the details aren't really the point of the story" when the logic falls apart. Brilliantly bullet-proof when you think about it, especially considering it was developed several thousand years ago (Judaism) and almost two thousand years ago for Christianity.

Spotlite · Nov 14, 2017

bullethead said:
Makes me wonder if your spiritual discernment agrees with all christians spiritual discernment.
I mean it would HAVE to being that an outside force that is SPIRITUAL would be giving you all the same mesaage and obvious discernment capabilities.
Right??

Absolutely there's plenty of room for disagreement. I've already stated that that's a topic of its own, and that would fill up several pages lol. Man will justify his ways. It's a black eye for Christianity but it happens. You hear stories all the time "God told me to do it". Not an exact quote, but everyone that says Lord will not enter in.

Texas church shooter was a militant atheist

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