Sam Harris with Bart Ehrman

ambush80 · May 7, 2018

1gr8bldr said:
Erhman states often that his walk away from faith was suffering of good people and the bible, specifically, if God wrote it then why did he allow men to tamper with it, why not preserve it. And from there, it fell apart, but that was the initial struggle

That's right. He mentioned so in the interview. But from what I could tell, he remained Christian while he was finding all the errors as he did his translations, but his struggle with the problem of suffering eventually led him away from Christ. But don't you think that the fact that he read through the Bible critically informed his view that the problem of suffering isn't completely answered by Christianity?

1gr8bldr · May 7, 2018

ambush80 said:
That's right. He mentioned so in the interview. But from what I could tell, he remained Christian while he was finding all the errors as he did his translations, but his struggle with the problem of suffering eventually led him away from Christ. But don't you think that the fact that he read through the Bible critically informed his view that the problem of suffering isn't completely answered by Christianity?

I'm not sure at what point he walked away. I remember vaguely his lecture about the problem of suffering. I know he attended Moody bible institute. And your right, the problem of suffering is not solved in Christianity. Christians often claim, that car that just ran the red light, just missed me. God saved me from it. However, if God could have done that, he could have also removed the close call. I have seen people cured from cancer whom will say that it was purposed so they might gain compassion. I then think well, what about those who died. If you think God does it all for our good, then what about someone blinded, paralyzed, or worse, dead. They always try to justify it with their beliefs. Bart's view of suffering is broader than this, such as why do babies starve. Or a child raped, etc. If God created this, why does he allow it, as if he lost control of it. One will then play the devil card. Reasonable conversation starts to get frustrating. I honestly don't know the answer. And I can't use my personal experience of hardships or good times as a lens to look through when we are talking about the world in general. The biblical picture here is this. Our spiritual journey is exactly likened to the spiritual journey of the Israelite slaves. The NT lingo is based on this, whether translators realized it or not. When they faced times of testing, for their benefit, they grumbled among themselves, and asked "Is God among us or not?" Christians live in this world and are faced with the things of this world. Some will lose their faith in times of testing. Others will as Jesus did, tell themselves, he will never leave me or forsake me. Again, this is the biblical picture. I have and do declare this to myself from time to time as I face things. Not in words but in acknowledgment. Although I have not been paralyzed, struck with blindness, starving, or a war refugee. So, I realize I have not been tested as some might have so I would never state that they should "just have faith". And I am uncomfortable saying that these things are a test. Because then, I would be blaming it on God directly. So, I'm rambling, showing that I have no clear insight on this.

ambush80 · May 7, 2018

1gr8bldr said:
I'm not sure at what point he walked away. I remember vaguely his lecture about the problem of suffering. I know he attended Moody bible institute. And your right, the problem of suffering is not solved in Christianity. Christians often claim, that car that just ran the red light, just missed me. God saved me from it. However, if God could have done that, he could have also removed the close call. I have seen people cured from cancer whom will say that it was purposed so they might gain compassion. I then think well, what about those who died. If you think God does it all for our good, then what about someone blinded, paralyzed, or worse, dead. They always try to justify it with their beliefs. Bart's view of suffering is broader than this, such as why do babies starve. Or a child raped, etc. If God created this, why does he allow it, as if he lost control of it. One will then play the devil card. Reasonable conversation starts to get frustrating. I honestly don't know the answer. And I can't use my personal experience of hardships or good times as a lens to look through when we are talking about the world in general. The biblical picture here is this. Our spiritual journey is exactly likened to the spiritual journey of the Israelite slaves. The NT lingo is based on this, whether translators realized it or not. When they faced times of testing, for their benefit, they grumbled among themselves, and asked "Is God among us or not?" Christians live in this world and are faced with the things of this world. Some will lose their faith in times of testing. Others will as Jesus did, tell themselves, he will never leave me or forsake me. Again, this is the biblical picture. I have and do declare this to myself from time to time as I face things. Not in words but in acknowledgment. Although I have not been paralyzed, struck with blindness, starving, or a war refugee. So, I realize I have not been tested as some might have so I would never state that they should "just have faith". And I am uncomfortable saying that these things are a test. Because then, I would be blaming it on God directly. So, I'm rambling, showing that I have no clear insight on this.

Your ramble sounds like the kind of internal dialogue of someone who's trying hard to sort something out. I recognize it and appreciate it.

I guess it really comes down to what one would prefer to believe; what brings them the most "grace". Either there's someone at the helm and all this suffering is for a good purpose or there's no one at the helm and some are lucky and some aren't. There's a movie called The Exorcism of Mary Rose and at the end they say that she saw her suffering as her testament to God. Her burden was to remain faithful even through her torment. That would be her testimony. I wonder if the source of her her relief might also have been the source of her suffering. At the end of Conan The Barbarian Conan prays to his God Crom to help in in the upcoming battle. At the end of his prayer he says "But if you won't help me, then the "heck" with you".

Sam Harris with Bart Ehrman

ambush80

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1gr8bldr

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ambush80

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