The Creator; God or Jesus?

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
John says the Word was with God.
God says let us make man in our image.

Colossians 1:16
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

What I wonder about is the Incarnation. The distinction between Creator and Creation.

Is Jesus being the Creator a major Trinity belief or do just some Trinitarians see it this way?

Does the Incarnation have anything to do with creating?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

If the Word is God the Son and the Word was with God as in God the Father, then the Word was God as in God the Son.

It never says God is all three at the same time. So there could be more of a Oneness or Unity thing going on instead of a Trinity thing going on.

Trinitarians to use John 1:1 to prove that the Son is eternal. I think most believe Jesus was the Creator.
“the Word” was from the beginning and became flesh.

In Word; Revelation 13:8 the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Shows how the Word works.
Before man’s first sin, God already had a solution.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Maybe the Trinity/Word became one at the Incarnation.
The Word became flesh.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
When Trinitarians read God, why do they assume it means God the Father? The Word was with God? The Word was God?
It's like we have this picture or mindset that God, when we read this is God the Father. The Word was with God.
Somehow God brings to mind the Father. Like the Father is more "God" than the other two persons even though they are equal. Still even when I was a Trinity believer, I always pictured God as the Father.

Somehow and related to John 1 is that that Jesus is the Creator. The Word was with God, (the Father) from the beginning and therefore he created. Yet Jesus is the visible representation of the one invisible God. But he existed in more than Word? He was with God before the incarnation. He Created.

Then he was with God and he was God, but does this really make God more than multiple persons at the same time?

John distinguishes the Word as being separate from God and as being God. It just sounds more Oneness that Trinity.

Regardless, who created Creation?
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Regardless, who created Creation?

Which creation? The physical creation? The creation of the first heaven and earth, or the second and last heaven and earth?

The answer regardless is God, but you may be inquiring more about Jesus role?... I think Jesus is creator of the last heaven and earth. It's a very complicated subject only confused with simplest ideology.
 
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Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Which creation? The physical creation? The creation of the first heaven and earth, or the second and last heaven and earth?

The answer regardless is God, but you may be inquiring more about Jesus role?... I think Jesus is creator of the last heaven and earth. It's a very complicated subject only confused with simplest ideology.

Let's go with the first one for now. The creation of the universe, earth, etc.
Maybe there was three creations, the everything(universe), the Israel(world/Adam), and the last Israel(New Jerusalem).
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds have been framed*(formed) by the Word of God, so that what is seen has not been made out of things which do appear.

Hebrews 11:3(KJV)
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Quote[John says the Word was with God.
God says let us make man in our image
.} End quote.
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds have been framed*(formed) by the Word of God, so that what is seen has not been made out of things which do appear.

Hebrews 11:3(KJV)
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Quote[John says the Word was with God.
God says let us make man in our image
.} End quote.

Jesus is the Word.

John 1:9-16

9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
The Word Becomes Flesh

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”

16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds have been framed*(formed) by the Word of God, so that what is seen has not been made out of things which do appear.

Hebrews 11:3(KJV)
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Quote[John says the Word was with God.
God says let us make man in our image
.} End quote.

Then you see this word or Word, using Hebrews 11:3 to mean Jesus created?
The worlds were framed? Worlds, plural? The word "worlds" is translated from the Greek aion, meaning "age," in the sense of a period of time.

"Word" is not logos but rhema in this verse, meaning "revealed words."
It should read word of God as in his mind rather than Word meaning Logos.

Hebrews 11:3
By faith, we understand that the ages were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen has not been made out of things which are visible.

Ellicott's commentary;
That the worlds were framed.--Literally, that the ages have been prepared. The remarkable expression which was used in Hebrews 1:2 is here repeated.

Hebrews 1:2
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the ages,
or
KJV; Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Ellicott's commentary;
The ages preceding and following the appearance of Messiah are in Jewish writers known as "this world" (or, age) and the "coming world" (or, age);
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Let's go with the first one for now. The creation of the universe, earth, etc.
Maybe there was three creations, the everything(universe), the Israel(world/Adam), and the last Israel(New Jerusalem).


I'm learning more about this. John Walton is an expert on old Testament texts and ANE texts.
According to him, a physical universe creation is not really in scripture.


 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
I'm learning more about this. John Walton is an expert on old Testament texts and ANE texts.
According to him, a physical universe creation is not really in scripture.

I watched a little and read about Walton. Can't say yeah or nay. I've heard Genesis chapter one was universal creation and chapter two is world/Israel creation.

I've also read the the Jews considered the words "world" and "creation" to mean themselves and/or their world.

Getting back to Walton, where does he think the universe came from? I guess one could say that if it's not in scripture, it doesn't matter. Still though if following Walton, there is no account between man's first appearance and Adam's first appearance(creation) to include the Fall.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
I'm learning more about this. John Walton is an expert on old Testament texts and ANE texts.
According to him, a physical universe creation is not really in scripture.

I watched a little and read about Walton. Can't say yeah or nay. I've heard Genesis chapter one was universal creation and chapter two is world/Israel creation.

I've also read the the Jews considered the words "world" and "creation" to mean themselves and/or their world.

Getting back to Walton, where does he think the universe came from? I guess one could say that if it's not in scripture, it doesn't matter. Still though if following Walton, there is no account between man's first appearance and Adam's first appearance(creation) to include the Fall.

I can't speak for what Walton believes or not, he's got a lot of videos and seven minute seminary explaining his belief.. Or not so much his belief, but his understanding of the text.

It appears to me, he doesn't think the physical creation story is in the Bible, I agree with that. Adam was the first covenant man, not first man. Adam was the first covenant breaker, and all his lineage ( eventually Israelites), were genealogically guilty of his sin.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
I can't speak for what Walton believes or not, he's got a lot of videos and seven minute seminary explaining his belief.. Or not so much his belief, but his understanding of the text.

It appears to me, he doesn't think the physical creation story is in the Bible, I agree with that. Adam was the first covenant man, not first man. Adam was the first covenant breaker, and all his lineage ( eventually Israelites), were genealogically guilty of his sin.

Then within your belief in the Trinity, you just don't use the "Jesus is the one who created the universe" thing.
You support the Trinity with other scriptures such as the Word was with God and God saying, "let us make man in our image." This could be Adam as being in the spiritual image of God and his Son. In other words all three of the Trinity persons were there at Adam's creation, but the Father created him.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Then within your belief in the Trinity, you just don't use the "Jesus is the one who created the universe" thing.
You support the Trinity with other scriptures such as the Word was with God and God saying, "let us make man in our image." This could be Adam as being in the spiritual image of God and his Son. In other words all three of the Trinity persons were there at Adam's creation, but the Father created him.

Art.. I've discussed Trinity, Oneness, and other sorts of beliefs on God's nature. I don't deny Trinity, but I sure can't argue for it. I see problems in every known doctrine concerning the nature of Christ, so I decided to take a break from exploring it a while back, concentrate on other things, and I'm sure glad I did. :)
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
Let's go with the first one for now. The creation of the universe, earth, etc.
Maybe there was three creations, the everything(universe), the Israel(world/Adam), and the last Israel(New Jerusalem).
The greek does not say universe. It is "ages". Jesus speaks of ages, the 1st age, was the law, grace and truth came through Jesus, the 2nd and the age to come. The old has gone the new has come. The new creation.
Also the use of the "through him all things were made" in John 1 is in the greek actually "transitioning from one point to another. Not in any sense created. As I said before, Biblehub is the easiest source to see the greek, the definition and all the other uses of it. In my mind, it's impossible to be a bible student and study a biased bible translation. I must see the source
 
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