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Would some of you listen to this and tell me what you think?
- Thread starter jmharris23
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ambush80
Senior Member
WaltL1
Senior Member
My initial thoughts -
As with any speaker including Dawkins, Harris etc, regardless of the subject, his own beliefs are intertwined within what he is presenting. That may be humanly impossible to avoid.
I have trouble with his premise. Basically that people are walking away from the "wrong" God. He isn't being presented properly.
Like it or not, admit it or not, all a Christian/anybody knows about God, whether they walk away from, walk to, worship, is what they have been told. In essence what you are told and your understanding of it IS "God".
All the different denominations, all the different viewpoints, all the different understandings spell that out.
Unless of course you've sat down with him/her/it and were given the real deal.
He really went off the rails in his claims about what Atheism is and a lack of belief in God means this about there is no you etc.
I thought his example of if you open up a box of value the box will be empty therefore proving value is an "illusion" was interesting.
That same line of thinking also proves God is an illusion.
I understand the point he was trying to make but he may want to look at his explanation from different directions.
Same with his creation explanation. If you are an Atheist you believe something came from nothing blah blah blah.
So where did God come from?
Yeah I know he just always was. Of course. How convenient.
If you believe God just always was then you have just suspended everything has to come from somewhere. Then you turn it back on and claim "those wacky Atheists believe something can come from nothing".
To sum it up I don't put a whole lot of stock in these type of speakers whether they be Atheist, Christian or whoever.
They are just a guy using some facts, some opinions, some assumptions etc to get you to see things their way.
They have their place, they can provoke you to think but it really boils down to this - there are a limited number of facts as we know them and the rest is merely a choice of what sounds good/bad to you and what you want/domt want to believe.
As with any speaker including Dawkins, Harris etc, regardless of the subject, his own beliefs are intertwined within what he is presenting. That may be humanly impossible to avoid.
I have trouble with his premise. Basically that people are walking away from the "wrong" God. He isn't being presented properly.
Like it or not, admit it or not, all a Christian/anybody knows about God, whether they walk away from, walk to, worship, is what they have been told. In essence what you are told and your understanding of it IS "God".
All the different denominations, all the different viewpoints, all the different understandings spell that out.
Unless of course you've sat down with him/her/it and were given the real deal.
He really went off the rails in his claims about what Atheism is and a lack of belief in God means this about there is no you etc.
I thought his example of if you open up a box of value the box will be empty therefore proving value is an "illusion" was interesting.
That same line of thinking also proves God is an illusion.
I understand the point he was trying to make but he may want to look at his explanation from different directions.
Same with his creation explanation. If you are an Atheist you believe something came from nothing blah blah blah.
So where did God come from?
Yeah I know he just always was. Of course. How convenient.
If you believe God just always was then you have just suspended everything has to come from somewhere. Then you turn it back on and claim "those wacky Atheists believe something can come from nothing".
To sum it up I don't put a whole lot of stock in these type of speakers whether they be Atheist, Christian or whoever.
They are just a guy using some facts, some opinions, some assumptions etc to get you to see things their way.
They have their place, they can provoke you to think but it really boils down to this - there are a limited number of facts as we know them and the rest is merely a choice of what sounds good/bad to you and what you want/domt want to believe.
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bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Like the writers of the stories in the bible, he takes some facts and intertwines them with some beliefs and ignores counter evidence in order to give a believer another way to rationalize the irrational.
Years ago the argument that atheists championed the belief that something came from nothing was the bedrock that the believers based their counter argument on.
Now, these speakers still continue with these claims despite years of refutations because they are really only trying to gather some people that are already believers towards their line of thought. He is still preaching to the choir with the same old sermon with different twists. His added spin is a perfect example of why there are 40,000 different denominations. All are believers at the core but had to insert whatever twists that allowed their mind to feel easier about the irrational.
Years ago the argument that atheists championed the belief that something came from nothing was the bedrock that the believers based their counter argument on.
Now, these speakers still continue with these claims despite years of refutations because they are really only trying to gather some people that are already believers towards their line of thought. He is still preaching to the choir with the same old sermon with different twists. His added spin is a perfect example of why there are 40,000 different denominations. All are believers at the core but had to insert whatever twists that allowed their mind to feel easier about the irrational.
jmharris23
Moderator
Thanks for your input. I appreciate you taking the time to listen
jmharris23
Moderator
So what would you guys say if a professed atheist listened to all six of these sermons and changed his/her mind?
That he really wasn't an atheist to begin with? That's he's being irrational?
It does happen
That he really wasn't an atheist to begin with? That's he's being irrational?
It does happen
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
People go with what makes sense in their own mind. Believers become unbelievers. Unbelievers become believers. It happens daily for any number of reasons that cause a person to think about things in a new manner.So what would you guys say if a professed atheist listened to all six of these sermons and changed his/her mind?
That he really wasn't an atheist to begin with? That's he's being irrational?
It does happen
If someone listened to that and changed their mind I am not surprised. If hundreds changed their minds I am not surprised. If everyone or at least an overwhelming vast majority that ever listened to it changed their minds then I would say the man is onto something irrefutable.
I didn't buy it.
jmharris23
Moderator
I know you didn't. Nor did I think you would or should. I was just curious
WaltL1
Senior Member
I think that a belief in God is based on emotion. Whether that be fear, hope, desire, need or whatever. Its not based on fact so there is some other controlling factor within that person.So what would you guys say if a professed atheist listened to all six of these sermons and changed his/her mind?
That he really wasn't an atheist to begin with? That's he's being irrational?
It does happen
An Atheists emotion can change just like anybody else. They didnt change because the Christian God was proven to be true while they were listening to the 6 sermons they changed because something in the sermons struck an emotional chord.
The speaker seems to recognize that too.
He said "and now I want to SCARE the "nones" prior to going into his explenation of what walking away from religion means.
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Oh I know that, my "i didnt buy it" wasnt meant towards you sharing it...as it was more towards the effect of the speaker made on me.
jmharris23
Moderator
660griz
Senior Member
I watched it. He is a good speaker. However, he uses the same style as others. By that I mean, he states opinion as a fact.
"Atheism is a complex belief system." Uh...No. You can't just rewrite definitions to suit your agenda.
He states the usual, in an entertaining way: If we can't explain it, there must be God.
He spoke of no justice or value without God. This is the "no morality" without God argument that we have heard before and provided explanation.
What I think he is really trying to say, "Come back! We need money."
"Atheism is a complex belief system." Uh...No. You can't just rewrite definitions to suit your agenda.
He states the usual, in an entertaining way: If we can't explain it, there must be God.
He spoke of no justice or value without God. This is the "no morality" without God argument that we have heard before and provided explanation.
What I think he is really trying to say, "Come back! We need money."
jmharris23
Moderator
That's certainly possible. He may just really believe what he's saying? Some people do you know
660griz
Senior Member
That's certainly possible. He may just really believe what he's saying? Some people do you know
I'll take your word on it. I haven't seen it yet.
Grew up in a small town, small Baptist church, preacher worked full time and preached to us on Wednesdays and Sundays.
He was a humble, poor working slob like the rest of us.
I would bet money that if he were ever in a plane that was going down, he would pray to be saved from death instead of embracing the glory that is about to come.
jmharris23
Moderator
Maybe he would have, maybe he wouldn't.
Regardless, Christian history is full of men and women who embraced the glory that was about to come based on their beliefs, even if it was, as you think, misguided.
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
It is not unfair to think that when all reasonable hope is lost and doom is inevitable people embraced glory to the very end. No other option worked so why not try convince yourself that you will be better off once dead. Nobody can ever tell us how that works out though.
jmharris23
Moderator
660griz
Senior Member
Yes they did. Suicide to get into heaven was once so popular the church had to declare it a sin to stop it.
Never understood why they would want to stop it. Money?
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