Purpose for believing?

Artfuldodger · Dec 23, 2016

I can also assume, because it appears, that God is electing less folks these days. Realizing that he elected before time and that those elected were not chosen by works or their future works. God didn't look ahead to this generation and say, "these people are more sinful than the past generation so I'm going to pre-elect less of them."
Why do we know that? Because God doesn't use works as a basis for election. We just have to assume that as time progresses towards Judgement Day he will elect less people.

We aren't controlling when Jesus will return by increasing sin. God already knows when Jesus will return. If there will be less Christians as we progress towards Judgment Day, it's because God is electing less, not because of man's increasing sin.

Artfuldodger · Dec 23, 2016

Mr Mac said:
Promises from God;

Isaiah 54:13-17 (ESV)
13 All your children shall be taught by the Lord, and great shall be the peace of your children. 14 In righteousness you shall be established; you shall be far from oppression, for you shall not fear; and from terror, for it shall not come near you. 15 If anyone stirs up strife, it is not from me; whoever stirs up strife with you shall fall because of you. 16 Behold, I have created the smith who blows the fire of coals and produces a weapon for its purpose. I have also created the ravager to destroy; 17 no weapon that is fashioned against you shall succeed, and you shall refute every tongue that rises against you in judgment. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord and their vindication[e] from me, declares the Lord.”

This is one of those promises from God (along with Jeremiah 31:16 & 17 (ESV) 16 Thus says the Lord: “Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears, for there is a reward for your work, declares the Lord, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. 17 There is hope for your future, declares the Lord, and your children shall come back to their own country.) that we hold on to a pray over our children daily.

What are your feelings on how this relates to our purpose for believing?

Mr Mac · Dec 23, 2016

Artfuldodger said:
What are your feelings on how this relates to our purpose for believing?

Ezekial 36:26-28 (ESV)
26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Being one of God's elect, I am sure of my salvation. I fully believe the greatest commandment is to love Him with all that I am, as well as fulfill the commission I am charged with to make disciples of the nations. All of this, as stated before, not because I love Him, but because He loved me first. My purpose for believing is to serve Him and love Him, period. I cannot say this is a feeling, it is, for me, merely a fact.

I too was raised with the 'fear of God' being the main reason for my becoming a Christian. Now that I am more mature, I know this was wrong thinking and teaching. The Gospel of Jesus, is one of love, not fear.

Artfuldodger · Dec 23, 2016

Mr Mac said:
Ezekial 36:26-28 (ESV)
26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Being one of God's elect, I am sure of my salvation. I fully believe the greatest commandment is to love Him with all that I am, as well as fulfill the commission I am charged with to make disciples of the nations. All of this, as stated before, not because I love Him, but because He loved me first. My purpose for believing is to serve Him and love Him, period. I cannot say this is a feeling, it is, for me, merely a fact.

I too was raised with the 'fear of God' being the main reason for my becoming a Christian. Now that I am more mature, I know this was wrong thinking and teaching. The Gospel of Jesus, is one of love, not fear.

Thanks for sharing your views. I think that is part of what I was trying to convey. Something along the lines of God loving us first, and then we loving him in return. That instead of "Believe and love me or you will burn forever and ever." I have heard some people say they saw no reason to become a Christian if there was no He!!. That the gift of eternal life with God wasn't reason enough. That it had to be from fear of eternal death. In other words to some people, salvation is from fear instead of love. It's more of fear from eternal punishment than the love of eternal life.
Your input shows that maybe it's fear to begin with but as God's love enters us, we begin to believe out of love and rid ourselves of that belief out of fear.

Maybe another way of putting it is "what is salvation's purpose?"

welderguy · Dec 23, 2016

Art, I assure you, the primitive baptists don't have a monopoly on election in any way. It doesn't work that way. You have a backwards way of looking at election if you think this way brother.

Artfuldodger · Dec 23, 2016

welderguy said:
Art, I assure you, the primitive baptists don't have a monopoly on election in any way. It doesn't work that way. You have a backwards way of looking at election if you think this way brother.

I'm sorry if I appeared that way. I was just using that denomination as I have family that went to a Primitive Baptist Church. I was just using it as an example.

Arnie Church

Many of the pioneer citizens of Coffee County were believers in Primitive Baptist doctrine. They had churches in many places in South Georgia and some in Coffee County. One of the oldest churches in Coffee County is Arnie Church. It is situated about ten miles southwest of Douglas. This church was organized about 1886 by Elder Mobley and others. Elder King was one of the first pastors of that church.

Elder King was my ancestor.

I know full well that they don't have a monopoly because
God's election isn't based on works. That was the point I was making.

1gr8bldr · Dec 23, 2016

Artfuldodger said:
I don't believe that eternal punishment is everlasting fire but death. Separation from God by death instead of everlasting life.
Why would it matter though if one could take the place for his children or countrymen? I'd still take my place in eternal fire for my children. Are you saying Paul wouldn't for his countrymen if he thought it meant eternal punishment in flames?

LOL, I erased a long post. Hypotheticals are hard to discuss

Artfuldodger · Dec 23, 2016

1gr8bldr said:
LOL, I erased a long post. Hypotheticals are hard to discuss

I've did that before and right before hitting submit I delete it.

Israel · Dec 26, 2016

Artfuldodger said:
Does one become a Christian to save their own soul from eternal death or to glorify God?

Would it be selfish to believe just to save your own soul from eternal death?

Would it be selfish to believe in order to get protection from God as an individual, family, or nation?

That's a lot of power when you think about it. If one in fact possesses that power.

Maybe God does give us that power. Perhaps he says "believe and I will provide everlasting life." Isn't that what John 3:16 says?

Am I being selfish if I want everlasting life? Can I do it for both reasons? To glorify God and to save my on soul?

Are you able to hear anything funny in this question?

...no...not that question...but this one:

"Why am I a created thing?"

Do I reach too far in that? Is there a subtlety to it that is lost on all but me? For, to me, it is not subtle at all. But I am also the man who once said in complete earnestness "God gets all my jokes".

Now, it could seem a man like me is trying so hard to be an "insider" to even think anything about me is subtle, to even mention anything about it...for the wise among you have already said "This guy is an open book in every way, striving so hard to look like he knows anything! He's the guy who thinks he knows, but doesn't know as he aught!"

How perfect! The guy who thinks he has "inside info" that causes him to boldly approach a thing he thinks he knows so very very well, even by Name...and there propelled by such boldness, as boldness to even speak in that Presence (as though he knew something!)...and all to an end that the Name might show him...he knows nothing at all about that which he speaks! (now, how inside is that joke?)

I think it could be so perfect to say "Obviously, this guy can't do a thing to help himself".

If I speak of eternal hilarity, that is, that the joke at the first, seems always "on me"...but that the perfect, pure, and resounding laughter is so very joyous, so very wonderful to hear as to remove all shame and, dare I say it...doubt about the good nature of the Chief Laugher...who could believe such a man?

(Really...Lord, you can take that and use it?)

A brother once said:
For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.

Didja hear the one about the man who heard Jesus speak?
"Thou shalt love the Lord with your whole heart and soul and mind and strength"

You know what he said?
"OK, Jesus, I'll take that to heart and get back with you when I am done doing it"

Israel · Dec 26, 2016

Israel said:
Are you able to hear anything funny in this question?

...no...not that question...but this one:

"Why am I a created thing?"

Do I reach too far in that? Is there a subtlety to it that is lost on all but me? For, to me, it is not subtle at all. But I am also the man who once said in complete earnestness "God gets all my jokes".

Now, it could seem a man like me is trying so hard to be an "insider" to even think anything about me is subtle, to even mention anything about it...for the wise among you have already said "This guy is an open book in every way, striving so hard to look like he knows anything! He's the guy who thinks he knows, but doesn't know as he aught!"

How perfect! The guy who thinks he has "inside info" that causes him to boldly approach a thing he thinks he knows so very very well, even by Name...and there propelled by such boldness, as boldness to even speak in that Presence (as though he knew something!)...and all to an end that the Name might show him...he knows nothing at all about that which he speaks! (now, how inside is that joke?)

I think it could be so perfect to say "Obviously, this guy can't do a thing to help himself".

If I speak of eternal hilarity, that is, that the joke at the first, seems always "on me"...but that the perfect, pure, and resounding laughter is so very joyous, so very wonderful to hear as to remove all shame and, dare I say it...doubt about the good nature of the Chief Laugher...who could believe such a man?

(Really...Lord, you can take that and use it?)

A brother once said:
For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.

Didja hear the one about the man who heard Jesus speak?
"Thou shalt love the Lord with your whole heart and soul and mind and strength"

You know what he said?
"OK, Jesus, I'll take that to heart and get back with you when I am done doing it"

Since I can't help myself...here's an even funnier follow up.

"OK, Jesus, I'll take that to heart and get back with you when I am done doing it"

"And then you can tell me what to do next after that..."

Purpose for believing?

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