Born that way?

Artfuldodger said:

Romans 5:19-20
19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

Now it's not "all" but "many." In verse 20 the same "many" made sinners by the "one" will be made righteous by the "one."

It's the same group.

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Amen!

welderguy said:

The elect are included in the "all".It's only by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ that the elect can glorify God.Remember,"and such were some of you".





Yes.The elect were condemned through Adam,but justified through Christ.

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So every man, "all" were condemned through Adam and "all" will be justified through Christ but now it's a different "all."
I'll definitely have to study this concept more.

hobbs27 said:

In Christ....all shall be made alive...you keep dropping the In Christ.

In Adam is death
In Christ is eternal life.
I have eternal life in Christ. The Israelites of the old covenant was dead in Adam.
Some were born from above..( born again) into the new covenant of life!

Death reigned from Adam to Moses... Now life reigns in Christ.

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I didn't drop the "in Christ",I said "in Jesus"....same thing.

Go back and read the whole chapter(1 Cor. 15) and get the context.It's the resurrection.

Artfuldodger said:

So the "all made alive" is whom, "all in Christ" or "all at the resurrection?"

Who was the "all" that Adam's sin condemned?

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"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead."
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
Resurrection.
Do not confuse being resurrected by Christ, as being in Christ.

gemcgrew said:

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead."
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
Resurrection.
Do not confuse being resurrected by Christ, as being in Christ.

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Amen.
Thanks Gem. That's what I've been trying to say for the last hour.

To be resurrected, one is brought from death to life. Old covenant Israel died in Adam and was raised to life in Christ.
Now you understand the resurrection of the dead ones. Which was the hope of Israel.

Artfuldodger said:

So every man, "all" were condemned through Adam and "all" will be justified through Christ but now it's a different "all."
I'll definitely have to study this concept more.

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All all's are not all alike....

gemcgrew said:

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead."
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
Resurrection.
Do not confuse being resurrected by Christ, as being in Christ.

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I'm trying not to. Which verses in Romans and Corinthians are showing where "all" means "all in Christ" and which verses in Romans and Corinthians are showing where "all" means "resurrected by Christ" in reference to Adams sin?

Who was the "all" that Adam's sin condemned?

hobbs27 said:

All all's are not all alike....

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And sometimes "all" changes to "many."

Romans 5:19-21
19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Did the grace of God trump the many sinners brought about by one man's disobedience? Did grace abound all the more? Were more saved by grace than sin condemned?

hobbs27 said:

To be resurrected, one is brought from death to life. Old covenant Israel died in Adam and was raised to life in Christ.
Now you understand the resurrection of the dead ones. Which was the hope of Israel.

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Amen, resurrected to life through Christ vs eternal death caused by sin.
The penalty of sin is death.

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

Art..do you see a problem with the above text as it is taught by futurist? * hint* the seed and when its sown.

I see a few things but not the seed. Please explain. Do you mean sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption?

I see God gives it a body as He pleases. Could be used for election but if a body is sown in corruption how was it elected until it is raised in incorruption? If resurrection is spiritual then how can we take on incorruption if it means waiting for a physical resurrection?
How can we be born again or from above if it's spiritual if we must wait for a physical body?

In the above verses I see no mention of bodies being resurrected in corruption as will happen at a future bodily resurrection. In other words at the future resurrection all bodies will be resurrected, the corrupt ones and the incorrupt ones. Yet the above scripture says It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. Again no raising of bodies doomed for eternal death. No resurrection of corrupt bodies.
Actually no raising of any natural bodies.

OK Hobbs, what about scriptures that say the dead in Christ will rise first and then those doomed for He!!? I think I recall reading about that. Maybe in Sunday School as a child.

What you sow is not made alive unless it dies.

So a seed is sown, then it dies, but futurist and folks that believe this is about physical bodies would have us believe, the seed dies and then is sown ie. physical body in casket.

It could still be a "Resurrection of all in Christ" only even if in the future.

"According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

I'm beginning to see what Gem was saying "all" means "all in Christ."
All in Christ will be made imperishable. All in Christ will be made incorruptible. All in Christ will resurrect regardless of what resurrect means.

The dead in Christ will rise first and then the living in Christ will be called up to meet them. No mention of a resurrection of the corrupt, only the "all in Christ."
Eternal death for those who were never reborn a spiritual body. They will suffer a spiritual death. No resurrection.

Artfuldodger said:

OK Hobbs, what about scriptures that say the dead in Christ will rise first and then those doomed for He!!? I think I recall reading about that. Maybe in Sunday School as a child.

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When Christ returned the dead in Christ received the promise first. That is those that died believers from His ministry to 70 ad.

They were joined together with those that were alive , raised into one Body..the body of Christ.
This is from 1 Thessalonians 4.
I'm trying to find where those condemned were raised.

hobbs27 said:

What you sow is not made alive unless it dies.

So a seed is sown, then it dies, but futurist and folks that believe this is about physical bodies would have us believe, the seed dies and then is sown ie. physical body in casket.

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The seed doesn't actually die, it becomes the living body God gave it. God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
Now I can see the seed being sown in corruption as all human seeds are. They are all sown as a natural man.
Later if reborn they will be raised an incorruptible spirit.
I don't see this happening at a later physical death.
If we are already reborn and resurrected as a spiritual body at our conversion then why would we need another future resurrection? We are given life from the second Adam, a life giving spirit.
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

The part I don't understand is being resurrected already as a spirit while I'm still in a body of corruption. If I am already resurrected, why am I still in a natural sown body? How can I now be a raised spiritual body.
How can I perform spiritual things? How am I supposed to act spiritually if I'm still partially natural? Am I some type of hybrid half spirit, half natural? It's no wonder I have so many struggles with the flesh. I'm still half natural.
I actually feel more natural than spiritual. I know that's a bad thing.

Artfuldodger said:

The seed doesn't actually die, it becomes the living body God gave it. God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
Now I can see the seed being sown in corruption as all human seeds are. They are all sown as a natural man.
Later if reborn they will be raised an incorruptible spirit.
I don't see this happening at a later physical death.
If we are already reborn and resurrected as a spiritual body at our conversion then why would we need another future resurrection? We are given life from the second Adam, a life giving spirit.

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The dead of Israel were being sown while in the perishable Adamic nature, with dishonor, decay, and bondage. But they were also being raised into the imperishable body of the second Adam..Jesus.

hobbs27 said:

What you sow is not made alive unless it dies.

So a seed is sown, then it dies, but futurist and folks that believe this is about physical bodies would have us believe, the seed dies and then is sown ie. physical body in casket.

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If my seed must die for me to be made alive, what about eternal life? Why is this different than soul sleep? Because the instant my seed dies I become a living spirit?

artfuldodger said:

the seed doesn't actually die, it becomes the living body god gave it..

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bingo!!!!

Died to the first Adam..made alive in the Second.

A seed is no longer a seed when it sprouts and begins to grow, this is more about the corporate body of Israel dying to Adam, and coming alive in Christ.

hobbs27 said:

To be resurrected, one is brought from death to life. Old covenant Israel died in Adam and was raised to life in Christ.
Now you understand the resurrection of the dead ones. Which was the hope of Israel.

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There are two resurrections for a child of God.One is spiritual,when he is regenerated,and one will be physical,when Jesus comes back to raise the bodies of both elect and non-elect.

Confusion comes in when you apply scripture to one that should have been applied to the other.
John 5:21-29 tells of both resurrections.