Questions about our Native Americans

It could be argued that but for the British influencing the Lower Creeks during the Revolution and then meddling in the affairs of all the nations on the frontier of the young United States, there would have never been a powerful Seminole nation, or even one at all. Many of who we think of as being Great Native warriors in GA, Alabama and Florida were in more cases than not, more white than they were native, William McIntosh, Alexander McGillivray, William Weatherford, Osceola and John Hicks were all at least half White, either both of their parents being half white or one parent that was fully white. They all pretty much owned slaves and led the life of Southern Planters at one time or other (the exception to being a planter would maybe be Osceola). Alexander McGillivray more than anyone else is probably the most responsible for setting into motion the creation of what we now recognize as the Seminole Nation. It was through his actions that the Lower Creeks (mainly Miccosukee) and the Upper Creeks (Muscogee) ended up sided with the British during the Revolution. His father was a staunch loyalist leading to him becoming one too. He led most of the Creeks during the Revolution and ended up leading many of the Lower Creeks to Florida, he also signed the Treaty of Pensacola with the Spanish shortly after the Revolution giving land to the Lower and Upper Creeks in Florida and contested south west GA (both FLA and GA claimed the lands). Ironically, two of his nephews, William McIntosh and William Weatherford ended up being opposing commanders during the Creek Civil War/Red Sticks War/ First Creek War in 1813 and 1814. Both of them were of the Wind Clan, the most powerful clan in the Creek Confederation at the time of the War.

Bill Collector, that was great.
How do you get your arms around the original McIntosh that came to live among the Creeks? Some say he was a Scottish trader that came inland and set up a trading post near what is now Fayette County. Married a Creek woman, and I guess was William's father???
What is the true story in that?
Thanks for all the good stuff!
Gary

I have seen some British Maps of South GA and the Natives, and they showed pretty much all of SOWEGA as being inhabited by Seminoles....this leads me to think that the British referred to the Miccosukee as Seminoles rather than Creeks. The writings about Thomas Brown and his Royalist Rangers also mentions his Seminole allies and Seminole towns on the Flint River. This makes sense due to the fact that after the 7 years war or French Indian War, the British obtained Florida in the treaty ending the war. It became the 14th and 15th Colonies of British East Florida and British West Florida and many Tories from GA took refuge there during the Revolution. Prior to the end of the French Indian War, the area of SOWEGA was claimed by both the Spanish and the British, but was off limits to British settlement due to treaties with the Creek Confederation. The Spanish had missions in the area prior to the Seven Years war that were part of the Apalachee Mission District. When the Kauka's owned Chiquapin Plantation in Thomas Co. Mrs Kauka, an amateur archeologist found a Spanish mission bell and a Spanish swivel Cannon on the property and Spanish pottery and other artifacts, many think it was a Spanish mission site. There are also records of Spanish Missions up the Flint river in SOWEGA. There were many historical Miccosukee towns in south and south west GA that show up on British Maps of the area as Seminole towns. I would bet that the term Seminole came from the british mispronunciation of Cimarron Indios or Wild ones i.e. non-Christian Indians.

If you can find reading material on Thomas Brown and his King's Rangers, or many called them Florida Rangers you will see a lot of references to the Seminoles in GA at the time of the Revolution. He was hated in GA by the Patriots and was responsible for some of the more "nasty" aspects of the American Revolution. It was largely his recruiting and actions that made the Revolution in GA what many call America's First Civil War. In GA it was truly brother against brother and father against son along the frontier. It involved burning the homes and killing the wives and children of both Tories and Patriots, it was truly an aspect of the Revolution very few history books talk about. Thomas Brown was allied with Alexander McGillivray and this alliance led to fighting in GA that did not end until 1790, interestingly enough, if you were in the GA militia and fought the creek nation up until 1790 you were entitled to a Revolutionary War Pension, I have two of my kin that were 13 and 14 years old in 1783 but got Revolutionary War Pensions and Land Grants due to them fighting with the militia against the Creeks in the late 1780s, they were from around Wrightsville but weren't Quakers. Ben, if you are reading any of this, please pipe in and correct me, I am writing most of this from my memory and it ain't as good as it used to be.

westcobbdog said:

I am sure Macintosh was a great man but signing a treaty ceding so much land bought about the cry for the death sentence he was given. Especially when he carved out his own plantation to keep for himself.

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That's exactly what happened to several prominent Cherokee chiefs too, after they became too "white" and sold (practically gave away) Cherokee land. And doing that made them rich(er).

One on hand, can't say I blame the assassins, on their principle. But on the other hand, maybe those chiefs knew what was inevitable, and probably just tried to make the best (least worst) of a situation. The game of politics.

Gary Mercer said:

Bill Collector, that was great.
How do you get your arms around the original McIntosh that came to live among the Creeks? Some say he was a Scottish trader that came inland and set up a trading post near what is now Fayette County. Married a Creek woman, and I guess was William's father???
What is the true story in that?
Thanks for all the good stuff!
Gary

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White Warrior aka. William McIntosh was actually William McIntosh Jr., named after his Father, who was a Captain William McIntosh of Savannah. Captain McIntosh married a woman by the name of Senoya, who was Alexander McGillivray's sister. He was born during the Revolution (1778 or there abouts), in the Creek Town of Coweta, which at that time was on the Ocmulgee River not far from present day Macon or below Columbus on the Chattahoochee, depending on your source..(Where Captain McIntosh did trade, there are a lot of references to Coweta being moved much earlier though...so he might have been born right below present day Columbus) It was not uncommon for Muscogee towns and Miccosukee towns to just up and move due to any number of reasons. I know that many of the lower creeks, if not the huge majority, spoke the hitchiti dialect, at least the towns he was associated with spoke that dialect. That would mean an origin from the Ocmulgee river or south and west there of. However, his mother was sister of McGillivray who was from the Upper Towns of Alabama and they spoke traditional Muscogee. So it is hard to say exactly where exactly his mother came from. The reason this is, a child amongst the creeks was sent to live with his mother's brother who was responsible for teaching him how to be a man. I do not know exactly how much of that took place with McIntosh because we know he went to school for some time in Savannah after the Revolution. Another of McGillivray's sisters is the mother of William Weatherford, a great chief of the Upper Creek Towns in Alabama who was a Red Stick war leader in the Civil War, he led a detachment that attacked Fort Mims in Alabama at the beginning of the war and he spoke a more traditional Muscogee dialect. McGillivray did help in the raising of Weatherford from what I can see. They were both of the Wind Clan, probably the most powerful clan in the Creek Confederation during the early 19th century.

McIntosh was a very politically connected individual, he was related by marriage to a number of early Governors of GA along with a goodly bit of other famous Georgians. One of the reasons he was hated before his death was that during the Treaty of Indian Springs, he got a rather large plantation as a "bribe" for signing the treaty. This plantation was outside of the indian lands and the Upper Creeks felt that he sold out. They also held a rather deep hatred for his part in the Creek Civil War and the burning of many upper creek towns in Alabama.

As for being from around Fayette County I could not answer that, however, I know where he was born (one of two places, either on the Ocmulgee near Macon or on the Chattahoochee below Columbus I have seen many references placing Coweta in both places at the time of his birth). His mother would have been originally from the Upper Towns of Alabama around the head waters of the Alabama River. Though during the Revolution McGillivray is also associated with Coweta. (he is also associated with the Upper Towns in Alabama, he was born in Little Tallassee on the Coosa River). Most marriages amongst the Creeks entailed the husband moving to the wife's town or village and the male child being raised more by his uncle than father (fathers had little to do with their sons), so this led to a lot of moving from one town to another early on apparently. I get the impression that McIntosh did not follow the custom totally though, because as earlier stated, he lived in Savannah for awhile as a child or teenager. Ben Kirkland who frequents this forum should be able to shed more light on this subject than I can.

Hoot said:

That's exactly what happened to several prominent Cherokee chiefs too, after they became too "white" and sold (practically gave away) Cherokee land. And doing that made them rich(er).

One on hand, can't say I blame the assassins, on their principle. But on the other hand, maybe those chiefs knew what was inevitable, and probably just tried to make the best (least worst) of a situation. The game of politics.

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I don't think he did it out of greed, he was related to two Governors of GA during his life time by marriage, a number of Senators and many other prominent Georgians. He saw himself as being almost as white and a Georgian as much anything else. His mother was half white and his father was all white. So he was three quarters white himself. He had influence because his mother's family were of the Wind Clan and his Uncles were prominent figures in the Clan, so he through his mother, was born a powerful figure amongst the Creek Confederation. He fought in two wars on behalf of the US and the State of Georgia. He was a Brig. General and commanded some GA militia during the First Seminole War. He, like many Indians of his time, saw full assimilation as being the only way the Creek nation could survive. He blamed Tecumseh for much of the problems that befell the Creek Confederation during the Creek Civil War and had most of the Creeks followed his lead, they would have been assimilated by the Removal Act and would not have had to have gone west. Interestingly enough, Chief Menawa who executed / assassinated him was also of the Wind Clan (McIntosh's Clan). He was sent due to the Treaty which was deemed unlawful amongst the Creeks due to lack of a tribal vote. If a Wind Clan member killed him there would not be inter clan strife and possibly another Creek Civil War. The Wind Clan were the "law keepers" amongst the Creek Confederation and that is another reason McIntosh was popular with the Americans, because he enforced the treaties with America with zeal.

On another note, Tecumseh and the prophet movement was very popular amongst many Creek warriors. Some went north to fight with him prior to the civil war, namely members of the Panther Clan (and I think the Bird Clan) from some of the Upper Towns. Them raiding and killing some white homesteads in Kentucky on the way back from fighting around the Great Lakes is what started the problems that eventually led to the Civil War amongst the Creeks. The Wind Clan arresting and executing members of the party and then some of the Wind Clan being at Fort Mims, though strangely enough, Weatherford was also in the Wind Clan and he led one of the larger war parties that attacked Fort Mims, his father was a Tory and influenced him in his later life so siding with the English who were largely behind the Prophets Movement I guess came natural to him plus being influenced by his Uncle McGillivray.

This has been a great thread, Guys. I really appreciate the history lesson.
Went out to Acorn Bluff today with Big Red, and we both enjoyed the park. Particularly with your background information before we went.
There is soo much knowledge out there that contributors to Woody's share with us.
Thanks again.

Gary Mercer said:

This has been a great thread, Guys. I really appreciate the history lesson.
Went out to Acorn Bluff today with Big Red, and we both enjoyed the park. Particularly with your background information before we went.
There is soo much knowledge out there that contributors to Woody's share with us.
Thanks again.

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A lot of the lineage is hard to wrap your mind around, at least it is for me. The Creeks, like most of the natives, were maternal in their habits unlike Europeans who are paternal. All ones influence was traced through their mother as opposed to their father. The first time I read about William McIntosh I thought..."how could a 3/4 white man have so much power with the Creeks with his father being all white?" It was through his mother and her brothers and uncles that McIntosh got all his position, she was related through her mother to some very powerful Creeks in both the Upper and Lower towns even thought they spoke different dialects (hitchiti and muscogee), it was just one of those interesting twist of fates that makes history so fascinating. I read the report of Benjamin Hawkins speaking to a tribal gathering in the Upper Towns followed by a speech by one of the Prophets, it was fascinating, better than anything a fiction writer could come up with, especially the way we all think of the Indians as savages, etc....I was surprised at the oratory skills of all involved at the council, which eventually led to the war that led to much popular folk lore in GA...."God willin' and the Creek don't rise" is an example (that saying ain't about a flood). They actually got upset about looms, hogs, cattle and iron plows. The followers of the Prophet movement actually killed all the cattle, hogs and anything deemed white at the outset of the conflict in any town they came to in the Creek Confederation, this led to many Red Stick supporters almost starving to death during the war. If you are interested in the death throws of the Creek nation in the southeast, the Washington Co. and Walton Co. (both in FLA) historical societies have some interesting reads on the subject. There was still some lingering conflict in those two areas in the 1840s and a number of not so good acts by the local militias against anyone who even appeared to have Creek indian in them. The Geneological research is made ever tougher, the Census of 1840 was burned and there are no records of it from GA or FLA so if you are researching your family for that time frame and people show up in the 1850 Census without any record of them or their family in the 1830 Census in South West GA or North West FLA....you might just have some lower Creek blood in your line. One of the last Creeks killed in hostilities in the South East took place on the Bay County /Walton County Line in Florida. It was in 1845 (or there abouts) on the beach at Phillips Inlet (Lake Powell outlet) He apparently was acting as a pirate and luring seafarers in and robbing and killing him. The Walton Historical Society refers to it as the last hostile act of the Second Creek war....though I think some refer to it as part of the 3d Seminole War. The history of the Creek Confederation and the Seminole Nation is interwoven in the History of GA, FLA and AL and is one of the more interesting aspects of that history. Being from a family that came to SOWEGA at the time of the removal act it is important to me, my family fought in all the Creek Wars in GA, AL and FLA and fought in two of the Seminole Wars that I have records on. I have a couple of females that show up in my genealogical research in the 1850 census that were not there in the 1830 census and no record of them before the 1830 census and they all showed up in what was them Lee, Randolph and Baker Counties...I also have a number of ancestors that got Revolutionary War Pensions and Land Grants in GA, while a number of them would have been in their early teens at the time of the treaty ending the revolutionary war....they were fighting in the Indian Wars in GA in the late 18th Century out of Greene Co. and areas there about. I know on my mother's side I had a number of ancestors that ended up in FLA during the revolution and later the Indes....but they all ended up back in either Florida or Georgia by 1800. I wonder if some of the menfolk rode with Thomas Brown and his Kings Rangers during that time frame, (If the records were not destroyed during the war, I am sure they destroyed all evidence of it in order to come back to the states) I also know I had some kinfolk that were with Elijah Clarke...that would truly make the Revolution a Civil War from my perspective in GA.

Gary Mercer said:

In an earnest effort to get away from the Trivia about "THE WAR," I would like to ask our history buffs to tell me where did the Seminoles come from?
I have heard they were an indigenous tribe in FL, and I have heard they were a Group made up of many tribes from GA and AL, even SC.
Does anyone really have a history of that tribe?
Just curious.

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I just read an interesting book written by William H. Simmons about his "recent" travels amongst the Seminoles in the early 1820's, its title is "Account of the Seminole Nation of Indians: by a Recent Traveler Amongst Them". He met with many of the leaders of the day and visited many of the Towns both Indian and neighboring black or "slave" towns. He wrote about how their system of slavery worked. He also went into depth about the matriarchal system used and how it was just like the Creeks, he also discussed the Wind Clan amongst the Seminoles and how they were also the Law Keepers, as they were with the Creeks. He notes many similarities between the Creeks and Seminoles but he seems to take the position they were more a peoples who were being inundated by both the Upper Creeks after the Red Sticks War, and Lower Creeks who some how had been in the conflict against the USA too. He spent an inordinate time on the whole approach to revenge amongst the Seminoles and why it could be very vicious when seen through European eyes but reasonable when placed in the context of their culture. He tried to learn their history as they told it, they claim to have been in Florida for over 100 years at that time and he got the impression that they were the descendants of the Yamasee Indians of pre-colonial and early colonial GA and SC. He was one of those early writers who was obviously caught up in the concept many had during that time of the "Noble Savage" and it was rather biased in his writings. It seems that some of his observations attempted to counter some made by Bartram during his travels, this might be because Bartram was seen as a loyalist in the Revolution and tempers and attitudes were still very anti-British. It does a good job in discussing the economy of the tribes of Florida and gives locations of many of the Towns. All in all, and interesting read for those interested in these things.

Good Stuff, BC!

RBC
What do we know about the Yemasse? I used to fish and hunt the area around the town of Yemassee and Pocotaligo in South Carolina.
IS Pocotaligo the name of another tribe, or an indian word for something?
Thanks for all the info...keep it coming.

For those of you interested:
A very good book for early history of native Americans is:
1491, NEW REVELATIONS OF THE AMERICAS BEFORE COLUMBUS.
Some of will blow you away. Good read.
Gary

Gary Mercer said:

RBC
What do we know about the Yemasse? I used to fish and hunt the area around the town of Yemassee and Pocotaligo in South Carolina.
IS Pocotaligo the name of another tribe, or an indian word for something?
Thanks for all the info...keep it coming.

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My main interest is the Creek Confederation and the Seminoles since they were the natives in the area I am from and who my family had interactions with in the 19th Century.

I have read some about them, just not much. They were players in early Georgia history with the Spanish Missions and such. The war with South Carolina in the early 1700s hurt them rather bad and not much at all is heard about them from there on. The Seminoles seem to think they are part of their make up though, it is known that they inhabited the Atlantic Coast of both Fla and Ga until they had run ins with the Spanish and then they
moved to SC where they eventually went to war with the colonist there in the early 1700s.

Used to vacation on the bay in Walton County (Mirimar Beach) in the 70's before the commercialization really started down there. Instead of surf and T-shirt shops, I remember there were several Native American gift shops. That area seemed pretty rich with Indian history...interesting to note the one of the last killed was in that area.

Two excellence book on the negative american of georgia,The Old Beloved Path ,by William Winn. And The Travels Of William Bartram, by Harper. More info than you can use in a lifetime.if i could go back in time, this would be it.