A guy walks into your church ...

SemperFiDawg · Apr 24, 2017

Artfuldodger said:
I needed salvation from the sins I couldn't repent from. If I could repent from sin, I wouldn't need a savior.

The concept of "sins I couldn't repent from" is foreign to me. Once the Holy Spirit convicts you that you are guilty of a sin, WHAT EXACTLY stops you or renders you incapable of asking God for forgiveness of that/those sins and help in turning from them?

SemperFiDawg · Apr 24, 2017

welderguy said:
Do you believe that before a man is regenerated, everything about God is foolishness to him?

Not sure what you mean by regenerated, but Paul makes it very clear in Romans 1 that EVERY ONE is accountable to God from what they can and do clearly understand about him. No man can claim ignorance and thus innocence. If they persist in their rebellion it is THEN that they are turned over to their foolish rebellious ways.

Israel · Apr 24, 2017

But some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples!” “I tell you, He answered, “if they remain silent, the very stones will cry out.”

There is something going on of which One man knows, and another does not. It has always been and always will be. One thing has said in itself "I will stop it....so I can add...to it.
I will sum it up, and then insert myself to make it greater."
(Another said "I will allow myself removed that it may be seen")

This thing is being dealt with perfectly by what always has been, and always will be.

Artfuldodger · Apr 24, 2017

SemperFiDawg said:
The concept of "sins I couldn't repent from" is foreign to me. Once the Holy Spirit convicts you that you are guilty of a sin, WHAT EXACTLY stops you or renders you incapable of asking God for forgiveness of that/those sins and help in turning from them?

I do ask for forgiveness but still struggle to repent. At one time in my life, I would have said freewill prevents me from repenting.

Maybe it still is. Maybe it's something so deeply embedded in my flesh that I can't shake until I give up that flesh.

I don't believe I'm the only Christian that struggles with sin. Is the Holy Spirit suppose to stop me from sinning or just make me aware that I'm sinning?

hobbs27 · Apr 24, 2017

welderguy said:
?? So you're saying God loved some people that were never His ??

?This is man's twisted logic, and is not scriptural.
God foreknew His people, and loved those He foreknew before He created them, and nothing can separate them from His love.

Did God give man the biological needs necessary and a command to be fruitful and multiply?

Israel · Apr 24, 2017

SemperFiDawg said:
Not sure what you mean by regenerated, but Paul makes it very clear in Romans 1 that EVERY ONE is accountable to God from what they can and do clearly understand about him. No man can claim ignorance and thus innocence. If they persist in their rebellion it is THEN that they are turned over to their foolish rebellious ways.

Indeed. But Paul saw another man. Who knew he could never take his stand upon what he knew. Nor be excused by what he didn't know.

I care very little, however, if I am judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not vindicate me. It is the Lord who judges me.

I am kinda fond of the way this is put:

I have a clear conscience, but that doesn't mean I have God's approval. It is the Lord who cross-examines me.

hobbs27 · Apr 24, 2017

All that Calvinist question — Free-Will and Predestination, is to my mind undiscussable, insoluble. Of course (say us) if a man repents God will accept him. Ah yes, (say they) but the fact of his repenting shows that God has already moved him to do so. This at any rate leaves us with the fact that in any concrete case the question never arrives as a practical one. But I suspect it is really a meaningless question. The difference between Freedom and Necessity is fairly clear on the bodily level: we know the difference between making our teeth chatter on purpose and just finding them chattering with cold. It begins to be less clear when we talk of human love (leaving out the erotic kind). ‘Do I like him because I choose or because I must?’ — there are cases where this has an answer, but others where it seems to me to mean nothing. When we carry it up to relations between God and Man, has the distinction perhaps become nonsensical? After all, when we are most free, it is only with a freedom God has given us: and when our will is most influenced by Grace, it is still our will. And if what our will does is not ‘voluntary’, and if ‘voluntary’ does not mean ‘free’, what are we talking about? I’d leave it all alone.
C. S. Lewis Yours, Jack (p. 186)

gemcgrew · Apr 24, 2017

hobbs27 said:
Things...

If you love something , set it free. If it comes back it is yours; if it doesn't it never was.

Hobb's version of a good shepherd.

hobbs27 said:
I think this is the chance that Lewis says God has taken.

Only a moron sees chance with the God of the Bible.

hobbs27 said:
If a wife in an arranged marriage submitted to her husband only because he was the husband... Would the husband feel loved? I wouldn't.

Your feelings. Your standards.

Artfuldodger · Apr 24, 2017

Did Saul repent and become Paul or did God call on Saul which lead to Paul repenting?

hummerpoo · Apr 24, 2017

hobbs27 said:
All that Calvinist question — Free-Will and Predestination, is to my mind undiscussable, insoluble. Of course (say us) if a man repents God will accept him. Ah yes, (say they) but the fact of his repenting shows that God has already moved him to do so. This at any rate leaves us with the fact that in any concrete case the question never arrives as a practical one. But I suspect it is really a meaningless question. The difference between Freedom and Necessity is fairly clear on the bodily level: we know the difference between making our teeth chatter on purpose and just finding them chattering with cold. It begins to be less clear when we talk of human love (leaving out the erotic kind). ‘Do I like him because I choose or because I must?’ — there are cases where this has an answer, but others where it seems to me to mean nothing. When we carry it up to relations between God and Man, has the distinction perhaps become nonsensical? After all, when we are most free, it is only with a freedom God has given us: and when our will is most influenced by Grace, it is still our will [which God has given us]. And if what our will does is not ‘voluntary’, and if ‘voluntary’ does not mean ‘free’, what are we talking about? I’d leave it all alone.
C. S. Lewis Yours, Jack (p. 186)

I cannot be sure that Mr. Lewis would accept my addition to his words at that place, but I think he would in this case as he himself did when his writings are read in full context (just as is the case in scripture).

Many of us would "leave it all alone", but our will is compelled otherwise, just as Mr. Lewis's will was compelled otherwise.

If we have been determined to speak of, or think of, man's will and God's will we must admit that both can not be sovereign. Mr. Lewis elsewhere does a good job of explaining that even God can not create something that contradicts his creation.

SemperFiDawg · Apr 24, 2017

Artfuldodger said:
I do ask for forgiveness but still struggle to repent.

If you are asking for forgiveness, and it is heartfelt, then that is the definition of repentance. Your statement above is contradictory if that is what you mean by "repent". Why must everyone struggle with such a simple concept. Even a child can understand that repentance is just a long word for heartfelt sorrow for an act that injured/offended another.

SemperFiDawg · Apr 24, 2017

gemcgrew said:
Hobb's version of a good shepherd.

Only a moron sees chance with the God of the Bible.

Your feelings. Your standards.

It's not that God has taken a chance on being Sovern. He is still sovern over creation start to finish, however each individual has free will to accept or reject him. That decision does not affect his omnipotence nor the overall outcome. I honestly don't see how anyone can dispute our free will. Not only did it lead to The Fall but it's evident in those around us every day who reject God. It's akin to denying your ability to deny. By denying it, you are in fact affirming it.

Artfuldodger · Apr 24, 2017

SemperFiDawg said:
If you are asking for forgiveness, and it is heartfelt, then that is the definition of repentance. Your statement above is contradictory if that is what you mean by "repent". Why must everyone struggle with such a simple concept. Even a child can understand that repentance is just a long word for heartfelt sorrow for an act that injured/offended another.

OK, I had the wrong definition. I thought repentance from sin meant to actually quit sinning.

I don't know if that is something that must come before salvation. Maybe repentance(heartfelt sorrow) and salvation happen simultaneously. I can see that concept.

I thought Centerpin was talking about turning from sin being a part of salvation. Maybe that's why he used someone who had no heartfelt sorrow. It's not that one must actually turn from sin but only wishes he could. Maybe?

welderguy · Apr 24, 2017

SemperFiDawg said:
Not sure what you mean by regenerated, but Paul makes it very clear in Romans 1 that EVERY ONE is accountable to God from what they can and do clearly understand about him. No man can claim ignorance and thus innocence. If they persist in their rebellion it is THEN that they are turned over to their foolish rebellious ways.

I think you actually know more than you think you know about regeneration, because you almost described it to a tee in post 281.

What you described could also be referred to as conversion,but they go hand in hand. Its a liberty to walk in newness of life with a new heart.

You mentioned Romans 1,which describes us in our unregenerated state. Now keep reading through chapter 8 to see us described after we are regenerated. Its good stuff!

Artfuldodger · Apr 24, 2017

So for salvation one must have repentance(heartfelt sorrow), faith in God, and believe Jesus died for the sins we can't stop performing or have performed in the past. I guess one has to admit to being a sinner. Admitting being a part of repentance, perhaps?

Somehow tying all of this in with God's grace and God having mercy on whom he will have mercy and Jesus receiving all the Father gives him.

SemperFiDawg · Apr 24, 2017

Artfuldodger said:
OK, I had the wrong definition. I thought repentance from sin meant to actually quit sinning.

I don't know if that is something that must come before salvation. Maybe repentance(heartfelt sorrow) and salvation happen simultaneously. I can see that concept.

I thought Centerpin was talking about turning from sin being a part of salvation. Maybe that's why he used someone who had no heartfelt sorrow. It's not that one must actually turn from sin but only wishes he could. Maybe?

Again. Making something simple difficult. Repentance is a heartfelt sorrow for injuring/offending another. If it's heartfelt you will WANT to stop. If you don't, it isn't heartfelt thus it's not repentance, just an empty gesture.

SemperFiDawg · Apr 24, 2017

Artfuldodger said:
So for salvation one must have repentance(heartfelt sorrow), faith in God, and believe Jesus died for the sins.

Just stop here. He did.

hobbs27 · Apr 24, 2017

hummerpoo said:
I cannot be sure that Mr. Lewis would accept my addition to his words at that place, but I think he would in this case as he himself did when his writings are read in full context (just as is the case in scripture).

Many of us would "leave it all alone", but our will is compelled otherwise, just as Mr. Lewis's will was compelled otherwise.

If we have been determined to speak of, or think of, man's will and God's will we must admit that both can not be sovereign. Mr. Lewis elsewhere does a good job of explaining that even God can not create something that contradicts his creation.

I can respect that, and I hope you will understand my bowing out of this discussion for the same reason. While I have an opinion on it, I have no real interest in dividing the brethren on the matter of, "I love God voluntarily " verses, " God has made me to love Him".
The ongoing debate over the hundreds of years I am sure has covered all scripture and all suppositions and no one can decide a winner, only choose a side... Of which both are on God's side.

hummerpoo · Apr 24, 2017

hobbs27 said:
I can respect that, and I hope you will understand my bowing out of this discussion for the same reason. While I have an opinion on it, I have no real interest in dividing the brethren on the matter of, "I love God voluntarily " verses, " God has made me to love Him".
The ongoing debate over the hundreds of years I am sure has covered all scripture and all suppositions and no one can decide a winner, only choose a side... Of which both are on God's side.

All future events, just as all past events, fall under God's control, so I will not predict what I will do, but if someone claims man's power over God's power, I may well be compelled to react. From my lowly perspective, I can't see that changing until men accept God's sovereignty over man's will, which he has graciously created.

But I do regularly pray for opportunities that might provide perceptible results; but that's just a selfish man asking for satisfaction.

Israel · Apr 24, 2017

SemperFiDawg said:
It's not that God has taken a chance on being Sovern. He is still sovern over creation start to finish, however each individual has free will to accept or reject him. That decision does not affect his omnipotence nor the overall outcome. I honestly don't see how anyone can dispute our free will. Not only did it lead to The Fall but it's evident in those around us every day who reject God. It's akin to denying your ability to deny. By denying it, you are in fact affirming it.

What choice does a child have in choosing his father?

And even men who are fathers may acknowledge their children as their own...but be extremely hard pressed to say "I chose you as a particular child" (Out of a million sperm)

Men know happenstance by exception (the exception being ignorance of all being perfectly ordered according to an intent eternal) and live in the world of yes...and no...both toward God...and then in perfect consequence toward one another.

A guy walks into your church ...

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