Order of Resurrection

hobbs27 said:

Or he could have said... To be absent of the body of Moses is to be present with our Lord in the body of Christ.

Click to expand...

Brother....He coudena, and he didena. Where would you find a reference in anyone's spiritual internalized cosmology that would understand or reference them into "the body of Moses" then or now in reference to the resurrection of the dead! Nada!

Come home! You'll get double portions. Come home.



I wonder how long this is good for?

Nehemiah 1:9 (KJV)
9 But if ye turn unto me, and keep my commandments, and do them; though there were of you cast out unto the uttermost part of the heaven, yet will I gather them from thence, and will bring them unto the place that I have chosen to set my name there.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Gordon.. The problem is folks keep talking about plural bodies being raised, but scripture says many raised in a body.. Singular.... Or a corporate resurrection from one natural body to one spiritual body.
The body of Moses = The old Covenant church.
the body of Christ = The New covenant church.

So those dead in the body of Moses would hear the gospel and be raised into the body of Christ.... From death to life.

1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.

1 Corinthians 13:9-10
Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture!10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Isaiah 26:19
But those who die in the LORD will live; their bodies will rise again! Those who sleep in the earth will rise up and sing for joy! For your life-giving light will fall like dew on your people in the place of the dead!

John 5:28
Don't be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God's Son,

John 6:39
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:23
But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

I can't put my finger one it. It hasn't been revealed to me. My knowledge is partial but it appears we must wait for something. Something at the resurrection. At His coming. The last day. The last Trumpet.

But each in his own turn.

I thought this a good discussion on what we are waiting for? True we don't really know, We are looking through the glass darkly.

I do feel like there is enough scripture to let us know we are waiting on something. I'm not talking about the resurrection itself or Christ's return itself but what we will acquire?
What will we gain? What are we waiting for? Why is Christ's return, our resurrection, the judgment, and anything else that may be future important in respect to what we will gain or acquire at this resurrection.

If one is already dead in Christ, at the resurrection, what will they receive that they don't already have? If they are already with the Lord and not sleeping.

It's more of a look for me at the various possibilities of life after death. I've always wondered why we would need to leave Heaven to return to the earth for a new glorified spiritual body. If God is spirit and Heaven is a spiritual place and I'm already there. Why leave?

We may sleep in the ground when we die. We may go to Heaven or Paradise. Still though we must wait on the order of the resurrection for something more not yet revealed.
This future resurrection has always been something I've hoped for. It has always been a big part of my family upbringing.
Kind of a big deal and important. I'm just not exactly sure why.

Just thinking out loud and exploring all of the possibilities until this future event happens. Some say it already has. We've already had the last trumpet sound and Jesus has turned over his Kingdom to God. I've explored that possibility as well.

That brings up the point of a plural resurrection vs individual resurrections when we die. Does each individual have a spiritual resurrection and judgement when he dies so that he can go on to Heaven?
Otherwise how could one go there before his future resurrection at the last trump when Christ returns?

Maybe when we die our spirit/soul goes to Heaven because it has already been renewed. Flesh and Blood can't enter the Kingdom of God but renewed spirits can.
Then when Christ returns to set up a Kingdom on the earth as it is in Heaven, our soul/spirits reunite with our new bodies of flesh and bones to experience this Heaven on Earth in a more physical sense.
Jesus has to return to restore the earth. To renew and redeem. He has already renewed our spirits but must now renew our bodies to undo what Adam did.
Maybe it's just part of the restoration. I mean if Jesus is coming back to set up a kingdom then he's going to need subjects. He has to destroy death. Therefore the graves must give up their dead.

Still though I would only think we would need bodies if we were going to stay on the earth forever. If there is a new heaven and a new earth that comes down. A new Jerusalem. Then we would need a new redeemed body to participate.

But in a spiritual heaven? If we have already been born from above or born again. Born of water and spirit. Shed our earthly clothes. Got rid of our flesh and blood. Become 100% spiritual.
Had a spiritual resurrection and are now in Heaven. If that's what Heaven is then we won't need a body.

Here is something from Randy Alcorn who sees it as being physical and future;

Adapted from Heaven by Randy Alcorn

"Our unbiblical assumption that Heaven
won’t be a real, earthly place blinds us to
what Scripture actually says. Rarely do we
hear descriptions that capture what the
Bible portrays as a New Earth with a great
capital city made with precious stones; a
New Earth that contains trees and rivers,
and where resurrected people come in and
out of the gates, engaged in meaningful
relationships and productive activity."

https://outreach.com/media/print/product/pdf/Heavsamp.pdf

The old covenant dead had a charge of sin that was not settled until Christ made atonement.

Christ's atonement was not complete until he came out of the holiest place to announce to those eagerly awaiting first generation Christians that the sacrifice had been accepted and salvation has come.

at that time the old covenant dead were resurrected to judgment. The righteous were joined with the dead in Christ and those that remained and we're living combined in the Spirit as the body of Christ.

since that time we have a Savior, and when we hear and act on the Gospel as in Revelation 22:17, we become Sons of God with eternal life.... Since we were never in the body of death... Old covenant body of Moses, we aren't resurrected from death to life.... We go from physical life to spiritual life.


OK.. I'm done, y'all enjoy the discussion.

hobbs27 said:

The old covenant dead had a charge of sin that was not settled until Christ made atonement.

Christ's atonement was not complete until he came out of the holiest place to announce to those eagerly awaiting first generation Christians that the sacrifice had been accepted and salvation has come.

at that time the old covenant dead were resurrected to judgment. The righteous were joined with the dead in Christ and those that remained and we're living combined in the Spirit as the body of Christ.

since that time we have a Savior, and when we hear and act on the Gospel as in Revelation 22:17, we become Sons of God with eternal life.... Since we were never in the body of death... Old covenant body of Moses, we aren't resurrected from death to life.... We go from physical life to spiritual life.

OK.. I'm done, y'all enjoy the discussion.

Click to expand...

Wait one more view please. Corinthians 15? Even if the coming of the Lord has already happened, there was a resurrection at this coming?
This is the resurrection you speak of? This was the the turn Paul was speaking of? First Christ and then the Old Covenant dead? The order of the resurrection complete? Was this resurrection from physical to spiritual as well? I mean in Corinthians 15 it appears to be kinda physical and kinda spiritual all at the same time. In a way that they didn't fully understand until they saw Jesus as he was. Until they had his light. They were face to face with Jesus. They became like him.
They acquired some type of body that they didn't have. Perhaps just spiritual. They had a resurrection.
If in the past then so be it but they did have a resurrection. It had to be like that of Jesus as he was the firstborn of the dead. First Christ and then these dead Old Covenant Saints when Christ returned. Still though it was a resurrection.

I do feel a little bit cheated that I don't get to have a resurrection. I've been looking forward to it yet I don't really know why.
I was looking forward to being clothed, unclothed, and clothed again like they were.

In a way a past resurrection explains so much. We go from physical life to spiritual life. We stay in Heaven forever.

Yet I think we were made as spiritual and physical beings or at least our spirits were placed in physical vessels. We have both, we are both. Mind, body, and spirit. Soul, body, and spirit.

I like to compare what I am as a man to what Jesus experienced as a man regardless of his divinity. He had a body and spirit/soul of a man. He died as a man. He lay dead in a tomb until God resurrected him.
I've always pictured me as having this same type of resurrection. It hasn't been revealed to me as to why I will experience this or need this resurrection. Just that I do. I feel that I need it desperately to become like Jesus. To see him as he is when he returns.

In a way a past resurrection for just the Old Testament saints makes the line straighter. No need to die, go to Heaven, return from Heaven only to eventually go back. It does make that line straighter. You just die and go to Heaven. Can't get any simpler than that.
I wouldn't even be pondering all these possibilities. Just a straight line from physical to spiritual.

I just can't read Corinthians 15 and see it as Paul explaining it as happening in 70AD. I see Christ returning and restoring order on the earth. I see a perfect earth restored. I see God's kingdom on earth as it is in Heaven. I see God's authority given to Christ to reign over this Kingdom and to judge. I see Christ handing this kingdom over to his Father.

In this process I see the order of the resurrection, first Christ as the firstborn to resurrect, followed by us in our turn. I see this turn as happening when Christ returns in the future. I see it as a time where the old heaven and earth shall pass. A new heaven and earth will replace it.

What happens between now and then hasn't been revealed. We know of the order just not exactly of the in-between. We still see through a glass darkly. What we will be has not yet been made known.
Still though we can't ignore the order of the resurrection. The dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

That part of the order has been revealed.

Was looking at clothed, unclothed, and clothed again. Paul didn't want to be unclothed. Some believe the unclothed is an intermediate state between physical death and resurrection.

One member on here shared this belief;
Immediate or Intermediate? The State of the Believer upon Death

"that the moment of death for the believer is the last day for him
or her because in death the Christian moves out of time, so that death is experienced as the moment when Christ returns."

Banjo Picker said:

Art, Here is so more to go with what your saying, I want to add some to it hoping it might shed some more light on it for you, so you can do some research on the order.
(1 Cor. 15:20-34). Christ "the firstfruits" was the guarantee of the resurrection of all men (1 Cor. 15;20-23). The "many" Old Testament Saints arose immediately after Christ did (Matt. 27:53). The next in order will be those who are "in Christ" and "are Christ's" at the rapture (1 Cor. 15:23, 51-58; 1 Thess. 4:14-17)
Next will be the 144,000 Jews as the manchild of Rev. 12:5. Then next will be "the great multitude" of tribulation saints and the two witnesses at the end of the tribulation who will be in time to be at the marriage supper and come back with Christ to establish His kingdom (Rev. 6:9-11; 7:9-17; 11:2-13; 15:2-4; 20:4-6).
All these companies because they are "holy," "blessed" and "just" will be in the first resurrection and will help complete it (Rev. 20:4-6). The wicked dead will not be raised until 1,000 years later (Rev. 20:4-15).

Click to expand...

When Christ comes back to establish his kingdom, how long will it be on the earth? When he hands over his kingdom to God, does it end or does God come to the earth/new Heaven to receive Christ's kingdom?
Christ will defeat all of the evil enemies you mentioned, the last enemy to be destroyed is death.
What happens to Christ's kingdom?

Banjo Picker said:

Art, Here is so more to go with what your saying, I want to add some to it hoping it might shed some more light on it for you, so you can do some research on the order.
(1 Cor. 15:20-34). Christ "the firstfruits" was the guarantee of the resurrection of all men (1 Cor. 15;20-23). The "many" Old Testament Saints arose immediately after Christ did (Matt. 27:53). The next in order will be those who are "in Christ" and "are Christ's" at the rapture (1 Cor. 15:23, 51-58; 1 Thess. 4:14-17)
Next will be the 144,000 Jews as the manchild of Rev. 12:5. Then next will be "the great multitude" of tribulation saints and the two witnesses at the end of the tribulation who will be in time to be at the marriage supper and come back with Christ to establish His kingdom (Rev. 6:9-11; 7:9-17; 11:2-13; 15:2-4; 20:4-6).
All these companies because they are "holy," "blessed" and "just" will be in the first resurrection and will help complete it (Rev. 20:4-6). The wicked dead will not be raised until 1,000 years later (Rev. 20:4-15).

Click to expand...

We still see through a glass darkly. What we will be has not yet been made known.
Can we expect future revelations? Eventually when we see Christ as he is, when he appears, we'll find out. What about between now and then? Will there be any more revelations?

1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Another example of not seeing Christ until he returns.

Artfuldodger said:

Was looking at clothed, unclothed, and clothed again. Paul didn't want to be unclothed. Some believe the unclothed is an intermediate state between physical death and resurrection.

One member on here shared this belief;
Immediate or Intermediate? The State of the Believer upon Death

"that the moment of death for the believer is the last day for him
or her because in death the Christian moves out of time, so that death is experienced as the moment when Christ returns."

Click to expand...

The clothing was the wedding garment.


5 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3 if indeed by putting it on[a] we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.


There's no physical biological body here vs a saved spiritual body.

There's an earthly body. Tent... Or household verses a spiritual household.

Paul being baptized into the body of Moses ( earthly old covenant household) died to that daily while eagerly awaiting it to be destroyed, that the New heavenly household (kingdom.) would come down..

One body of believers trapped in the already but not yet period.. Having the Holy Spirit and gifts as a guarantee, yet dying daily to the body of Moses, looking forward to being clothed in the wedding garments and entering the New household, the Kingdom.

That's resurrection of many from one body...to another body.... Body is always singular, while the people is always plural

Artfuldodger said:

1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Another example of not seeing Christ until he returns.

Click to expand...

Art, this verse is not speaking of a physical 'seeing' but the complete knowledge of Christ and his nature. Like the first of that verse says, we don't know yet exactly what we will know, but we will be like Him.

Also, 1Cor 13:12 Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Paul tells us that we can't see or know everything there is to know about God in this life, but when we meet Christ, we will know everything that Christ knows, just as He knows everything about what we know,do,think and experience.

I have often said 'when I get to heaven, I am gonna ask.....' but in my studies I have come to the conclusion that I will not have to ask. I will already possess that knowledge, just as Christ possesses that knowledge.

NE GA Pappy said:

Art, this verse is not speaking of a physical 'seeing' but the complete knowledge of Christ and his nature. Like the first of that verse says, we don't know yet exactly what we will know, but we will be like Him.

Also, 1Cor 13:12 Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Paul tells us that we can't see or know everything there is to know about God in this life, but when we meet Christ, we will know everything that Christ knows, just as He knows everything about what we know,do,think and experience.

I have often said 'when I get to heaven, I am gonna ask.....' but in my studies I have come to the conclusion that I will not have to ask. I will already possess that knowledge, just as Christ possesses that knowledge.

Click to expand...

I would agree that it may be spiritual but why does 1 John 3:2 say "when Christ appears?" He didn't say when we spiritually see Christ in Heaven.

Job 19:26
And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;

Psalm 17:15
As for me, I will be vindicated and will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisfied with seeing your likeness.

It's like the Bible says we have two of everything. Two births, two deaths, two awakenings, two appearances for us to see Jesus face to face(intermediate event & the final return of Christ)etc.

We are born of water and spirit, we live clothed, unclothed, and clothed again. We die of flesh, go see Jesus face to face, then resurrect later and see Jesus face to face again.

I still believe in the order of the resurrection and that we will gain something at this final resurrection that we will need to see Jesus as he is and become like him. We may see Jesus in the unclothed intermediate state and see him as he is, but we won't fully know until our resurrection. We need this resurrection to be clothed again.

1 Corinthians 15:23
But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

We can't fully experience "all in all" until the Bible says "all in all" will happen.
This is all that I am saying. Something will be different even if one has already died and gone to Heaven.

I see us having another awakening from death through Christ's resurrection. A spiritual awakening. Many verses about this that doesn't have anything to do with our resurrection at the last trump when Christ appears.
So we do have to use context to figure out a lot about dying and awakening in Christ when studying scripture.

Ephesians 5:14
This is why it is said: "Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."

One could be dead in sin but live through Christ. In a way we are already seated with Christ in Heaven. Even though we are still physically in our flesh on the earth.

Luke 15:24
For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.

Ephesians 2:1
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

Many verses about dying, awakening, and living are strictly about our spirits. I get that. Still though scripture tells us that when Christ appears, we will have another type of awakening. Many scripture tells us that we must wait for this awakening. Scripture even uses the term "sleeping." We are all sleeping and waiting on this final awakening from the grave. It's even called a "resurrection."
Paul uses the resurrection of Christ to prove that we will also have one. If Christ didn't have one then we won't. If Christ did have one then we will.

We can read all about dying, re-birth, awakening, etc. in the spirit, but we will still have a future resurrection that will be completely different from any previous birth, death, awakening, etc.
It's in the order of the resurrection as explained by Paul.

John 3:13
No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 Corinthians 15:20-23
But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:51-55
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”

John 6:39
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Psalm 17:15
Because I am righteous, I will see you. When I awake, I will see you face to face and be satisfied.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14
And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope.
14For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.

"then at his coming"
"on the last day" "but we have to wait our turn" "all in all"

We may achieve a lot but it still appears we must wait to receive everything.

Acts 24:15 having a hope in God, which they themselves also await, that there is about to be a resurrection, both of the just and of the unjust.

About to be... Thousands and thousands of years from now? Oh well.

Romans 13:11
And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

1 Corinthians 7:29
What I am saying, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none;

James 5:8
You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord's coming is near.

1 Peter 4:7
The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so you can pray.

Philippians 4:5
Let your gentleness be obvious to everyone. The Lord is near.

Hebrews 10:37
For, "In just a very while little, He who is coming will come and will not delay.

Revelation 1:3
Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

I can see some relation to the destruction of Israel in 70AD and a future end as well. I can't deny that. There was some type of salvation that came in 70AD. There was some type of end.
I have as many questions about this as the next fellow. I just don't feel the answer is that everything happened then. That view leaves as many unanswered question as it answers. It makes one look for weird ways to answer other verses.