Slave woman and her son?

Artfuldodger said:

Hobbs,
You mentioned that the patriarchs weren't Jewish because they believed Jesus was the Messiah. With that line of thinking then Jesus couldn't be Jewish either. I'm sure he believed he is the Messiah. Matrilineality in Judaism is the view that people born of a Jewish mother are themselves Jewish. I'm not an expert in the matter myself.
I've heard Jesus referred to as the King of the Jews but I'm not sure who referred to him a such. There is scripture of Jesus being the Great High Priest although that doesn't exactly make him Jewish. Jesus is considered a priest in the order of Melchizedek.
Was Melchizedek Jewish?

Maybe in some way we can rule out that Jesus was not Jewish but then we are still stuck on that thing that he was physical and that he had a physical resurrection.

So we are back to the physical vs spiritual dilemma of the whole Christianity thing.

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Art, The patriarchs weren't Jewish because Judaism didn't exist in their day. Judaism is a term explaining the beliefs of those of the house of Judah. Both the patriarchs and Jew's looked to the future coming of the Messiah, and many Jew's accepted Christ as the Messiah when He came. Those that accepted Him were the true Israel, those that denied were apostates, and we're destroyed in the days of vengeance.. IE 70 ad

Melchizedek also was before the house of Judah, and was not a Jew.

The old covenant = flesh
The New covenant = Spirit

Christians are members of the city Abraham looked forward to. The New Jerusalem had come, as the old was destroyed or we are all left without a covenant, without a kingdom, and without a God.

Artfuldodger said:

I've heard Jesus referred to as the King of the Jews but I'm not sure who referred to him a such. There is scripture of Jesus being the Great High Priest although that doesn't exactly make him Jewish. Jesus is considered a priest in the order of Melchizedek.

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Melchizedek was King and High Priest. I think this is where it either originates from or at least is validated as prophesy. I assume no other in history was both????

God promised "I will build you a city" and you will bear fruit you did not plant, and live in houses you did not build.

That's interesting in respect to man always trying to produce fruit on his own. It sounds more like the fruit of the Holy Spirit dwelling within.

Romans 10:20
And later Isaiah spoke boldly for God, saying, "I was found by people who were not looking for me. I showed myself to those who were not asking for me."

Romans 9:31-33
but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because their pursuit was not by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame."

Romans 11:10-11
Let their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever.” 11 I ask then, did they stumble so as to lose their share? Absolutely not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12 But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

How else can one view this but God who presented the Stumbling Stone for his purpose?

and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame."

It appears that when God foreknows someone or even a nation, he may place a stumbling stone in our path. We may venture without seeing until a future time in order to follow his plan.
We stumble for a reason. We look without finding. We can't find God by our terms or works.

"I will build you a city" and you will bear fruit you did not plant, and live in houses you did not build."

"and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame."
Maybe true but if one can't see then he must wait for the One who foreknew him.
What was the purpose of the Stumbling stone?

Isaiah 8:14
He will be a holy place; for both Israel and Judah he will be a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. And for the people of Jerusalem he will be a trap and a snare.

That stumbling stone and rock of offense is Jesus Christ. He is what they stumbled over and was a rock of offense. He went to His own and they received Him not.

What purpose did they need a stumbling stone for? I am aware that Jesus was the stumbling stone.
Why would a savior be a stumbling stone as well?

hobbs27 said:

The old covenant = flesh
The New covenant = Spirit

Christians are members of the city Abraham looked forward to. The New Jerusalem had come, as the old was destroyed or we are all left without a covenant, without a kingdom, and without a God.

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The Old covenant = Pointing to Jesus

The New covenant = Fulfillment of Jesus coming.

1 Peter 2:4-10


4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”

8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

Artfuldodger said:

What purpose did they need a stumbling stone for? I am aware that Jesus was the stumbling stone.
Why would a savior be a stumbling stone as well?

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Their hearts were hard, and they rejected Him who was sent on their behalf.

Did their stumble, as per Romans 11, have anything to it that provided salvation to the Gentiles?

Romans 11:14-15
in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

What I gather from reading Romans 11, it took the stumbling stone to blind the Jews. Their rejection by the stumbling stone allowed reconciliation of the world.

Was part of the rejection of Christ by the Jews in some way part of God's plan that allowed reconciliation of the world?

Romans 11:12
But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

A remnant was chosen by grace and not by works out of Israel. That left the ones who were not elected at that time. Their hearts were hardened. The ones God foreknew.
God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day.

This verse is important;

Romans 11:11
I ask then, did they stumble so as to lose their share? Absolutely not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous.

It's like God used the stumbling stone to make this happen. It's almost like it was God's plan.

Is. 49:6 He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

Spineyman said:

The Old covenant = Pointing to Jesus

The New covenant = Fulfillment of Jesus coming.

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Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Artfuldodger said:

God promised "I will build you a city" and you will bear fruit you did not plant, and live in houses you did not build.

That's interesting in respect to man always trying to produce fruit on his own. It sounds more like the fruit of the Holy Spirit dwelling within.

Romans 10:20
And later Isaiah spoke boldly for God, saying, "I was found by people who were not looking for me. I showed myself to those who were not asking for me."

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It all means something..... Tower of Babel is religion as we know it. Everything is for men to see. Everyone is trying to make a name for themselves. Everyone's works are a "brick" where we try to build a temple for God to dwell in. The temple being our bodies. Yet we stand back and admire our temple as if we have done something special, as if God's lucky to have us as builders. We have to come to the point that we hate what we see ....and tear it down, where all our good works are just ruble, to be like Paul and say not by my best efforts, but "I am what I am by the grace of God", And as Jesus said as they admired the temple.... Every stone must be torn down. And notice Abraham to the king of Sodom, he took nothing so that no one could claim they had any part in his blessings because his blessing came from God. Abraham was called out of religion as we know it. He did not know where he was going, he just faithfully went. Same as our spiritual journey if your walking by faith. No longer do we strive by our best efforts to become righteous. But we patiently wait for "through the spirit the righteous for which we hope". Abraham never settled in a place and had that area become a city in his name. No he wandered waiting patiently for a city who's maker and builder was God. Because as Steven said, God does not live in [our self constructed] houses made by man. You will bear fruit you did not plant, [fruits of the spirit] and you will live in houses you did not build, [our spiritual temple]. These houses gathered together will make up the new Jerusalem, a city who's builder and maker is God. Christianity as we know it is still in slavery, not having given up it's quest for righteousness through it's own best efforts. It has not realized that all it's good works are for men to see. It has not realized it's utter dreadfulness of pride and arrogance to the point that it hates what it sees. It's a white washed tomb, it's a corpse with makeup. It claims to know grace, yet it still strives to keep score, to boast, and thinks if only others could be like me. It claims to be crucified with Christ, yet does not realize why crucified. Does not realize the utter hopelessness of our nature. Bottom line, Christianity as we know it is still in slavery. The first thing that happens when someone is moved to search out relief from the roller coaster ride of up and down.... effort ,failure, guilt, where they should find that every valley is filled in and every mountain made low, smooth walking, the leaders call out for a higher quota, more straw, more brick.

1gr8bldr,
That's a great way to view the spiritualism or journey of Christianity. To change from flesh to spirit so to speak. I wish more Christians saw Christianity in this light as it pertains to God's power instead of theirs.
While I can see and understand that side of Christianity I also see a physical side as well. Do you view a time when everyone will become spiritual and not any longer physical? Meaning a time in the future when Jesus will return and remove all godlessness from Jacob? Without our help of course. Will God open the eyes of physical Israel before we all make the spiritual crossover to spiritual Israel?
How do you view the account as told in Romans 11?

to me, everything is spiritual. We only exist on a partial physical plane/partial spiritual plane for a few short years, and then on the spiritual plane eternally. Some of us (Elijah, Elisha, Moses) get to dwell closer to the veil separating the 2 planes, and get glimpse thru it on occasion. Isn't if unusual that God would have created a ever living spiritual being, to be housed in a physical body? I don't understand that, and just accept that He knows better than I do.

NE GA Pappy said:

to me, everything is spiritual. We only exist on a partial physical plane/partial spiritual plane for a few short years, and then on the spiritual plane eternally. Some of us (Elijah, Elisha, Moses) get to dwell closer to the veil separating the 2 planes, and get glimpse thru it on occasion. Isn't if unusual that God would have created a ever living spiritual being, to be housed in a physical body? I don't understand that, and just accept that He knows better than I do.

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When you say God created an ever spiritual being in a physical body, do you see a beginning of this ever spiritual being? I mean we were created, we have a beginning. Unlike Jesus who existed before becoming a spiritual being in a physical body.