A guy walks into your church ...

hobbs27

Senior Member
Our works do nothing for nor against eternal salvation.

Christ's finished work at Calvary, on the other hand, accomplished it all for us.

Are our works just for others to judge if we are saved or not?
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Galatians 3:3
How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?

But if it doesn't take human effort?

Ezekiel 18:24
"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
 
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Vectorman

Senior Member
The biggest problem today about repentance is that we automatically insert "of sin" anytime we see the word repentance in the Bible. The true definition as I understand it is to change you mind or direction. There are places where the Bible say to repent of a specific sin. ex. Acts 8:22 where Peter tells Simon to repent of wanting to buy the power of the Holy Spirit. But, if you look at Genesis 6:6 or Exodus 32:14 in the KJV you will see that God repented. Obviously He didn't turn from sin, He changed his mind. This is how it should be read in the rest of the bible. So, everytime you see the word repent, or repentance, read it as "change my mind about". It will clear things up.

Let's look at one example. Acts 17:29-31

Acts 17:29-31(NIV)

29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

This word "repent" should be read as "change their mind about".....about what?...about thinking that God was an image carved out of gold, silver, or stone by human hands.

Dr. Mike Halsey wrote an excellent book called "Truthspeak" it's available on Amazon and addresses this issue and several others. I suggest taking a look at it.

https://www.amazon.com/Truthspeak-C...4093&sr=8-4-fkmr1&keywords=truth+speak+halsey
 

welderguy

Senior Member
Galatians 3:3
How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?

But if it doesn't take human effort?

Ezekiel 18:24
"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.

When the righteous man fell into sin, he experienced the death that James tells us about.

James 1:14-15
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


Paul said "when sin revived, I died..."
 

centerpin fan

Senior Member
The biggest problem today about repentance is that we automatically insert "of sin" anytime we see the word repentance in the Bible. The true definition as I understand it is to change you mind or direction. There are places where the Bible say to repent of a specific sin. ex. Acts 8:22 where Peter tells Simon to repent of wanting to buy the power of the Holy Spirit. But, if you look at Genesis 6:6 or Exodus 32:14 in the KJV you will see that God repented. Obviously He didn't turn from sin, He changed his mind. This is how it should be read in the rest of the bible. So, everytime you see the word repent, or repentance, read it as "change my mind about". It will clear things up.

Let's look at one example. Acts 17:29-31

Acts 17:29-31(NIV)

29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

This word "repent" should be read as "change their mind about".....about what?...about thinking that God was an image carved out of gold, silver, or stone by human hands.

Dr. Mike Halsey wrote an excellent book called "Truthspeak" it's available on Amazon and addresses this issue and several others. I suggest taking a look at it.

https://www.amazon.com/Truthspeak-C...4093&sr=8-4-fkmr1&keywords=truth+speak+halsey

... but you can't compare God (Who is incapable of sin) to man (whose nature is to sin). Yes, repentance is changing our mind -- about sin! Look at Zacchaeus. He didn't change his mind about "who Jesus is". He changed his mind about his sin.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Ha. of course not.
Good works are for the glory of God, not man.

Then God glorifies Himself in His works through man?

What does that say of the reprobate, what is God doing through them?
 

Israel

BANNED
What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory —

Not unlike watching this, marveling at the patience and humility revealed...that is eventually the villain's undoing. Let a man think he's one thing for as long as he needs to, while thinking completely wrong of you. Let a man have all his inferences and presumptions and assumptions...even if he must, think it was you who gave them.
let him build, as it were..."precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, there a little"
He will fall backward...and be snared.


 

welderguy

Senior Member
Then God glorifies Himself in His works through man?

What does that say of the reprobate, what is God doing through them?

What brother Israel said...

And this...

Psalm 76:10
10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
... but you can't compare God (Who is incapable of sin) to man (whose nature is to sin). Yes, repentance is changing our mind -- about sin! Look at Zacchaeus. He didn't change his mind about "who Jesus is". He changed his mind about his sin.

I'm not sure the story of Zacchaeus is about repentance from sin. First Zacchaeus didn't say he repented from sin. He was already giving half of his possessions to the poor.
Their is no mention of his faith or his belief in Jesus.

Luke 19:8-9
And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold.”9And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham.

Perhaps it is a story of election as Jesus knew his name. Jesus responds that Zacchaeus is a true son of Abraham.(christian)
It could be a story that salvation was not just for the Jews instead of repentance of sin.

Just another way of looking at the story. Not the way I was taught but I could have been taught wrong.
 

Vectorman

Senior Member
Zacchaeus(Zac) probably suffered his entire life because of his being vertically challenged. This may be the reason he decided to become a tax collector, to get back at his own people for the lifetime of abuse. He even progressed to the position of chief tax collector. Zac had obviously heard the stories about this Jesus who some said was the Messiah. He knew that bacause he was a tax collector, he was considered to be beyond forgiveness but he also knew the the Messiah would forgive all sin. He ran like a child and climbed a tree like a child just to get a look at this Jesus character who everyone was talking about and when Jesus called him by name and asked to come to his house without ever have even met him, Zac at that moment believed. Vs. 6 stated that Zac welcomed him(Jesus) gladly. Zac's vow to give half of his wealth to the poor and to pay restitution to those that he defrauded was and example of what John the Baptist commanded to "produce fruit in keeping with repentance". The repentance here was when Zac believed that Jesus was the christ. The offer of restitution was the fruit of that decision.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Luke 19:3
And he was trying to see who Jesus was, and he was unable because of the crowd, for he was small in stature.

Does “short of stature” refer to height, or was Zacchaeus short on social stature, therefore unable to penetrate the crowd?

Perhaps the verb is translated in the progressive present tense. “Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have defrauded any one of anything, I restore it fourfold.”

We should all try and repent from sinning but I don't see this story as pertaining to that message. There are better accounts in the Bible to teach that message.
 

Vectorman

Senior Member
Luke 19:3
And he was trying to see who Jesus was, and he was unable because of the crowd, for he was small in stature.

Does “short of stature” refer to height, or was Zacchaeus short on social stature, therefore unable to penetrate the crowd

I think it was both, reading it almost makes me think that Zac Might have had a form of dwarfism. This would have put him at the bottom of the social structure and then that was compounded by his position as a tax collector.

It's hard not to study Zacchaeus without humming that song we all learned in Sunday school :)
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
I think it was both, reading it almost makes me think that Zac Might have had a form of dwarfism. This would have put him at the bottom of the social structure and then that was compounded by his position as a tax collector.

It's hard not to study Zacchaeus without humming that song we all learned in Sunday school :)

A wee little man was he!
 

welderguy

Senior Member
Jesus "knew" Zacheus, the same way He "knew" Nathaniel.

Remember, Jesus said to Nathaniel,"when thou wast under the fig tree, I knew thee."

2 Timothy 2:19
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.


If you've been called by His Spirit, it's an effectual call. He "knew" you specifically. It's not a general call to all. It's specific and intimate. He calls you by your name. And you are a new creature afterward "in Christ", forever.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
What brother Israel said...

And this...

Psalm 76:10
10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain

I've looked at this psalm a few times and I just can't seem to get the context into our discussion. I think I understand what you're saying, that both the righteous and unrighteous glorify God?

I'm just not sure how the unrighteous glorify God since their own demise is to perish. Not worthy of being in the presence of God.



“God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they've got to be free.
Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying.”


― C.S. Lewis, The Case for Christianity
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
I've looked at this psalm a few times and I just can't seem to get the context into our discussion. I think I understand what you're saying, that both the righteous and unrighteous glorify God?

I'm just not sure how the unrighteous glorify God since their own demise is to perish. Not worthy of being in the presence of God.

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Yet you believe everything leading up to 70AD was predestined to even include some election. So you, not being able to see it, is wrong because you've already admitted that it existed at one time.

I don't think the psalm is saying the unrighteous glorify God. What it's saying is "the unrighteous glorify God."
They glorify God by letting the survivors see it and realize they have escaped it.

Isn't there a passage where the reprobates think the teaching is foolish to show the way for the believes?
It's something along those lines.
 
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