Converting the dying

Spotlite · Dec 15, 2017

bullethead said:
I have shared my experiences in these threads a few times.
Strange
Creepy
Phenominal
Spooky
Amazing
Odd
Unexplainable
Explainable

But in no instance did I automatically think that a god took one second to have a hand in any of them.
I've thought of a dead relative helping more than a god...and I know how ridiculous that sounds.

And if you chose to give credit to a dead relative, I understand that you couldn’t convince me that the dead relative helped you and I would argue that it was ridiculous and stand firm that your experiences are not proof. On the other hand, I do understand how ridiculous it sounds to the non believers to give credit to God. The difference would be that your dead relative may not charge you with the task of “witnessing”. Often times and I’m guilty of this, the Christian goes further than “witnessing” and tries to do Gods part of the job of “proving” himself to the lost.

bullethead · Dec 15, 2017

Spotlite said:
And if you chose to give credit to a dead relative, I understand that you couldn’t convince me that the dead relative helped you and I would argue that it was ridiculous and stand firm that your experiences are not proof. On the other hand, I do understand how ridiculous it sounds to the non believers to give credit to God. The difference would be that your dead relative may not charge you with the task of “witnessing”. Often times and I’m guilty of this, the Christian goes further than “witnessing” and tries to do Gods part of the job of “proving” himself to the lost.

Yes, I can agree with what you've said.

The dead relative part was when my grandfather passed and there was a safe in his house that my grandmother wanted opened. She eventually found the combination but just could not get it opened.
I tried and same results, it just wouldnt open.

My mom steps in, gives it a few tries and nothing. Out of frustration she says out loud, "ok dad, give us some help here" she gave the dial a hard spin and the safe door popped open.

We all just looked at each other in bewilderment and making sure we all saw the same thing.

Crazy, cool, spooky, unusual, spine chilling.....
But can I honestly say that Pop-Pop gave it a Fonzy bump and opened it from beyond....

No

Spotlite · Dec 15, 2017

bullethead said:
Yes, I can agree with what you've said.

The dead relative part was when my grandfather passed and there was a safe in his house that my grandmother wanted opened. She eventually found the combination but just could not get it opened.
I tried and same results, it just wouldnt open.

My mom steps in, gives it a few tries and nothing. Out of frustration she says out loud, "ok dad, give us some help here" she gave the dial a hard spin and the safe door popped open.

We all just looked at each other in bewilderment and making sure we all saw the same thing.

Crazy, cool, spooky, unusual, spine chilling.....
But can I honestly say that Pop-Pop gave it a Fonzy bump and opened it from beyond....

No

Yup I’ve heard similar stories. I have caught myself at times saying “Daddy you gotta help me on this one” Sorry to hear about your Grandfather.

bullethead · Dec 15, 2017

Spotlite said:
Yup I’ve heard similar stories. I have caught myself at times saying “Daddy you gotta help me on this one” Sorry to hear about your Grandfather.

Thank you, but this was in 1981....I was 12.

I have always thought, and have read many articles about how "gods" got started and it had to do with people talking to recently passed or passed loved ones.
Look up in the sky and talk to "father"....

Spotlite · Dec 15, 2017

bullethead said:
Thank you, but this was in 1981....I was 12.

I have always thought, and have read many articles about how "gods" got started and it had to do with people talking to recently passed or passed loved ones.
Look up in the sky and talk to "father"....

One that really bothers me is my cousin, she lost her daughter in a drowning several years ago. I know it’s comforting for her to “talk to her”, I get that and if that helps a mother grieve then so be it. But to actually call on her to make it rain, or look over them while sleeping, etc. seems that she’s actually making a god out of her daughter. I would never ever say anything to her but I’ve been at their supper table and when they pray over their food it’s the normal “God bless this food” but it ends up with “Kimbo thank you for ordering the rain for the garden”. I know and understand it’s a grieving thing but I have no doubt that there’s many gods formed the same way.

bullethead · Dec 15, 2017

Spotlite said:
One that really bothers me is my cousin, she lost her daughter in a drowning several years ago. I know it’s comforting for her to “talk to her”, I get that and if that helps a mother grieve then so be it. But to actually call on her to make it rain, or look over them while sleeping, etc. seems that she’s actually making a god out of her daughter. I would never ever say anything to her but I’ve been at their supper table and when they pray over their food it’s the normal “God bless this food” but it ends up with “Kimbo thank you for ordering the rain for the garden”. I know and understand it’s a grieving thing but I have no doubt that there’s many gods formed the same way.

That's a prime example.

I could picture early man losing an elder that was a great warrior and leader of the clan and someone asking that deceased leader for guidance and it turning into the entire clan doing it before a hunt or battle or harvest (but really it was their learning from him that helped guide them) and that snowballing into generation after generation as a ritual until it becomes something more than a deceased loved one hundreds of years down the line.

Another clan or tribe witnesses it and incorporates something similar because their deceased leader was greater than the other one....
So on
And
So on
Over thousands of years

atlashunter · Dec 15, 2017

red neck richie said:
How so? I have shared my experiences with you. You discredit them. I find them to be truth. Please explain. By the way I would like to see a picture of your Christmas tree this year. Did you hand a string of Lights?

I provided a biblical claim about prayer that is demonstrably false. In light of that your personal anecdotes really don't amount to much. Lots of people have lots of conflicting anecdotes. That tells us nothing about what is actually true.

atlashunter · Dec 16, 2017

Spotlite said:
I would agree.

I’m with ya on this, but unfortunately bullet is correct. And until a person actually has personal experience with what we are saying, there’s nothing that you and I can provide as evidence. Although there are some that claim an experience and still chose not to believe, there are those that went from non believers to believers.

You make the incorrect assumption that we have never experienced what you are talking about. I grew up in "spirit filled" churches. That feeling is in your head. There is group psychology involved and there is also some choreography involved. Why do you think the preacher calls the pianist up to start playing a slow emotional tune just as he is finishing up his sermon and about to make an alter call? Ever notice that? It serves a purpose. People also have a natural urge to cry when they see others crying. Your head is being screwed with but at the same time you're a willing participant. We see the same thing on other religions and even in political movements that take advantage of the same dynamics. It seems real at the time especially if you already have the predisposition and desire for it to be real.

Richie says he has witnessed healing in response to prayer. How many amputees has he seen miraculously healed by prayer? That would be a big goose egg. Not a single documented case of that ever happening. Yet in the Bible he healed the severed ear of a soldier and he said those believers who came after him would be able to perform the same and even greater works than him. So let's put that to the test. Bring forth your best faith healer and let's see how well they perform under a controlled study. Let's see how many amputees they can heal and how many corpses they can bring back to life.

Spotlite · Dec 16, 2017

atlashunter said:
You make the incorrect assumption that we have never experienced what you are talking about. I grew up in "spirit filled" churches.

Spotlite said:
Although there are some that claim an experience and still chose not to believe.

Israel · Dec 16, 2017

bullethead said:
Thank you, but this was in 1981....I was 12.

I have always thought, and have read many articles about how "gods" got started and it had to do with people talking to recently passed or passed loved ones.
Look up in the sky and talk to "father"....

Yes, do.

Or look at the floor, at the insides of your eyelids, or into another's eyes. Just do it. As often as you can for as long as you can. Yes, talk to your Father, till it's about everything. About you, about others, about what you have, about what you think you lack, about what you believe you need...and all those things in which you are first inclined to speak in a bitterness "I don't need this, now", in however that may appear.

Yes, there is, and I believe I have inherited, a clear and unashamed confirmation bias. The cost of that bias in being passed down, becomes ever more clear in my sight as I am exercised in it. A bias now against what I was once in altogether agreement, and a bias toward the One who always knew of something better, but whom I opposed.

Can I boast of the end of my oppositions to Him? Hardly. Can I boast He has put an end to oppositions in Himself? Gladly.

I once wrote something to which you commented as to being in "the whole kit and kaboodle". It may have sounded then to you as though I was saying "I threw my lot in with Jesus Christ in all matters." It was, but wasn't.

Oh, I wandered after what is called "the good confession", and went places, did things for years that were harm to my own soul. Fornicator, adulterer, liar, cheat, venal empty husk...so proud of itself in its cleverness to evade, deceive, hold what seemed the upper hand without a seeming loss...but gain. Until, like a dog in the largest of pens I hit the fence, the boundary, the end...of what appeared my freedom. Yes, it was real. It was experienced.

And at that time, as I watched all I "thought I had" being stripped from me, and in such an undeniable and public way amongst those who knew me, I threw everything I knew against it, everything I could muster to its saving...of cleverness, of entreaties, of pleas and tears to no avail. The "jig was up", my hand had been called, and I didn't even have a pair of deuces. Zip. Zero.

And these words came, unbidden, not sought, not even to my mind in remembrance. Oh yes, the words are there, whether one knows them or not, acknowledges them or not, believes them, or not. They have been spoken, here, in this place of earth, sent here...and resonate still and will till the end of time. And, they came ..."to him who has more shall be given, but to him who has not, even that which he thinks he has, shall be taken from him".

And as I was watching all that I thought "I had" fleeing away, I rejoiced in knowing that the One whom I had abandoned in mind and deed, yet spoke to me. The words of themselves weren't pleasant, they nailed me there, showed me there, exposed me there, and plainly displayed my earning. Yes...at that point I can say I believe my attention was had, as at no other time.

But His attention, as it became plain, I had never been without. He once took me at my word..."Jesus is Lord", and allowed for all that He knew would be allowed to me in wandering, in self seeking, in sin...until I had some true glimpse of both what I had once years before uttered, and the unbreakable-ness of its truth, though I even be found a liar to it.

Would I recover...? It didn't "feel" it. The words weren't of any particular comfort, in themselves, except the comfort of knowing what seemed "hard" truth. But it was the knowing then...of Someone there, someone real, who saw me...even as wretch...but saw. Yes, He watches...and waits. Patient for our hearing. For our ears to be opened.

Yes, He had taken me..."whole kit and kaboodle"...when I didn't even know such was the exchange. I thought it was "mine" yet, to do with as I pleased, as I liked, as I cared.

I think we all, to some measure...want to be "taken seriously". But when we meet the One who does, that is, take us quite seriously, altogether seriously, there's an inclination to want a little less gravity about things, there we may not want everything to "mean" something, it's simply too much to bear. But it cannot be both ways either "everything" means something, or everything means ...nothing. There's really, no middle ground at all.

Either reason exists apart from man, or man simply attributes his own construct of it where he will. There is reason for everything, or reason itself...does not exist. One cannot say reasonably "I have found no reason in the universe", claiming with reason it has not been found, yet claiming he, with his assumed reason, plainly exists in it.

Man, either the subject of reason, and subject to it or seeing himself as God, its source. Thinking he is somehow outside the universe he surveys saying "there's no reason to it". And so yes...in such a way each may manufacture his own universe in which to dwell, thinking himself God, at least till such time as he discovers God's reason for allowing this. So that he might hit the fence, hit the wall, hit the end...that is always so much nearer than he could ever imagine.

bullethead · Dec 16, 2017

Israel said:
Yes, do.

Or look at the floor, at the insides of your eyelids, or into another's eyes. Just do it. As often as you can for as long as you can. Yes, talk to your Father, till it's about everything. About you, about others, about what you have, about what you think you lack, about what you believe you need...and all those things in which you are first inclined to speak in a bitterness "I don't need this, now", in however that may appear.

Yes, there is, and I believe I have inherited, a clear and unashamed confirmation bias. The cost of that bias in being passed down, becomes ever more clear in my sight as I am exercised in it. A bias now against what I was once in altogether agreement, and a bias toward the One who always knew of something better, but whom I opposed.

Can I boast of the end of my oppositions to Him? Hardly. Can I boast He has put an end to oppositions in Himself? Gladly.

I once wrote something to which you commented as to being in "the whole kit and kaboodle". It may have sounded then to you as though I was saying "I threw my lot in with Jesus Christ in all matters." It was, but wasn't.

Oh, I wandered after what is called "the good confession", and went places, did things for years that were harm to my own soul. Fornicator, adulterer, liar, cheat, venal empty husk...so proud of itself in its cleverness to evade, deceive, hold what seemed the upper hand without a seeming loss...but gain. Until, like a dog in the largest of pens I hit the fence, the boundary, the end...of what appeared my freedom. Yes, it was real. It was experienced.

And at that time, as I watched all I "thought I had" being stripped from me, and in such an undeniable and public way amongst those who knew me, I threw everything I knew against it, everything I could muster to its saving...of cleverness, of entreaties, of pleas and tears to no avail. The "jig was up", my hand had been called, and I didn't even have a pair of deuces. Zip. Zero.

And these words came, unbidden, not sought, not even to my mind in remembrance. Oh yes, the words are there, whether one knows them or not, acknowledges them or not, believes them, or not. They have been spoken, here, in this place of earth, sent here...and resonate still and will till the end of time. And, they came ..."to him who has more shall be given, but to him who has not, even that which he thinks he has, shall be taken from him".

And as I was watching all that I thought "I had" fleeing away, I rejoiced in knowing that the One whom I had abandoned in mind and deed, yet spoke to me. The words of themselves weren't pleasant, they nailed me there, showed me there, exposed me there, and plainly displayed my earning. Yes...at that point I can say I believe my attention was had, as at no other time.

But His attention, as it became plain, I had never been without. He once took me at my word..."Jesus is Lord", and allowed for all that He knew would be allowed to me in wandering, in self seeking, in sin...until I had some true glimpse of both what I had once years before uttered, and the unbreakable-ness of its truth, though I even be found a liar to it.

Would I recover...? It didn't "feel" it. The words weren't of any particular comfort, in themselves, except the comfort of knowing what seemed "hard" truth. But it was the knowing then...of Someone there, someone real, who saw me...even as wretch...but saw. Yes, He watches...and waits. Patient for our hearing. For our ears to be opened.

Yes, He had taken me..."whole kit and kaboodle"...when I didn't even know such was the exchange. I thought it was "mine" yet, to do with as I pleased, as I liked, as I cared.

I think we all, to some measure...want to be "taken seriously". But when we meet the One who does, that is, take us quite seriously, altogether seriously, there's an inclination to want a little less gravity about things, there we may not want everything to "mean" something, it's simply too much to bear. But it cannot be both ways either "everything" means something, or everything means ...nothing. There's really, no middle ground at all.

Either reason exists apart from man, or man simply attributes his own construct of it where he will. There is reason for everything, or reason itself...does not exist. One cannot say reasonably "I have found no reason in the universe", claiming with reason it has not been found, yet claiming he, with his assumed reason, plainly exists in it.

Man, either the subject of reason, and subject to it or seeing himself as God, its source. Thinking he is somehow outside the universe he surveys saying "there's no reason to it". And so yes...in such a way each may manufacture his own universe in which to dwell, thinking himself God, at least till such time as he discovers God's reason for allowing this. So that he might hit the fence, hit the wall, hit the end...that is always so much nearer than he could ever imagine.

All that and it Literally has nothing to do with what you quoted from me.
Just an opportunity for a Drive By Preaching

ambush80 · Dec 17, 2017

WaltL1 said:
I don't think there is one.
That's where I just kind of go -

What could you offer a believer that can take the place of the kind of comfort that they get from their belief in God?

ambush80 · Dec 17, 2017

bullethead said:
All that and it Literally has nothing to do with what you quoted from me.
Just an opportunity for a Drive By Preaching

Sadly true.

bullethead · Dec 17, 2017

ambush80 said:
Sadly true.

The only purpose that I can see for a question and answer session with only one participant is self gratification. A way to constantly reassure oneself about beliefs that are not 100%.

The man doth profess too much me thinks

WaltL1 · Dec 17, 2017

ambush80 said:
What could you offer a believer that can take the place of the kind of comfort that they get from their belief in God?

Nothing that's legal :bounce:

I would assume anything that I could offer a believer would, in their mind, pale in comparison to the comfort they get from their belief in God.

bullethead · Dec 17, 2017

ambush80 said:
What could you offer a believer that can take the place of the kind of comfort that they get from their belief in God?

Peace and comfort from within oneself.

red neck richie · Dec 17, 2017

bullethead said:
Richie???

Yes. I was curious what you would tell you Grandchildren about Christmas. Do you celebrate the birth of Christ? Or do you just avoid the topic all together? Will you teach them anything about religion? Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I just got out of the woods. I didn't pull the trigger but had an awesome sit. I saw three hogs, one about 250 lbs. and a turkey.

bullethead · Dec 17, 2017

red neck richie said:
Yes. I was curious what you would tell you Grandchildren about Christmas. Do you celebrate the birth of Christ? Or do you just avoid the topic all together? Will you teach them anything about religion? Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I just got out of the woods. I didn't pull the trigger but had an awesome sit. I saw three hogs, one about 250 lbs. and a turkey.

Richie, all my three Sons knew about Christianity and Christmas. All were baptized. Two of them graduated from a Catholic high school. My middle Son taught at a Catholic school for 2 years. My wife is Christian. I cannot imagine a scenaro where any grandchildren would not know about Christianity. And like my children when they are able to decide for themselves about what path they would like to take, I will be honest and sincere and caring in teaching them about all aspects of religion and belief, and I will respectfully attend any services they are involved in as I have always done.
I will respect their parents wishes as to how they will raise their children.

I was baptized Catholic and raised Lutheran Protestant. Married in a Catholic Church. I lived.

bullethead · Dec 17, 2017

red neck richie said:
Yes. I was curious what you would tell you Grandchildren about Christmas. Do you celebrate the birth of Christ? Or do you just avoid the topic all together? Will you teach them anything about religion? Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I just got out of the woods. I didn't pull the trigger but had an awesome sit. I saw three hogs, one about 250 lbs. and a turkey.

Excellent day in the woods for you!
I was able to kill a 6pt buck and mature doe this year. Youngest Son shot a mature doe.
Today I finished dehydrating 25lbs of jerky.
We have 50lbs of snack stix ,that we made Thursday, currently at the butchers getting smoked. I dont have a smoker that large to handle 50lbs.
Good luck to you this season.

There are a few hogs in Western Pennsylvania that escaped from hunting preserves. I know they are a destructive nuisance but Id love to be able to hunt them locally.

Israel · Dec 18, 2017

I always thought a drive by was one in which one fires and flees...quickly.

Converting the dying

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