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Old 05-14-2018, 04:36 AM
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Default Was Paul lying?

For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:


What a terrible thing to say. What a seeming horrible place to occupy. Who needs it spelled out? Is/was Paul blind, or are we? How much spelling do we yet need?

Did Paul not understand words? Are all his letters a mere frivolity, a mere exercise of pleasure...speaking solely because he can?

Is he a man like just any other, so dumb in form to promise moon and stars "at the altar", only to find himself later thumbing through the yellow pages for divorce lawyers, or wondering what life's sweetness might hold if only rid of the "ball and chain"? Is he...that man?


Maybe he is just plain ignorant. Ignorant of the benefits of Christ, not like us at all who think to "stand upon his shoulders" for sight over obstacles and into the eternal.

Yes, maybe he is that...such a stupid, beggarly, and seeming homeless man who can be conned in a gullibility to trade what he thinks is just a piece of glass in his pocket, when we know it's a diamond. Yes, is he that man...not at all knowing what he's putting up for the trading in his silly words? Not knowing...at all? Not knowing what he says? Not knowing what he says...is heard?

But, maybe...he is not that man. Not...at all.

And all who weep at the altar with so many pleadings and cries for God's just power and righteousness to be made plain to a salvation and deliverance must never forget they no less are asking for Ananias and Saphira to be made plain. Lest we forget them, and who they may be shown...to be. Friendly fire kills just as assuredly as enemy bullet.

I am the man who may be shown lying about his devotion to the Son of God.

Paul...is not. That man.
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I ain't the most self aware man, Bobby, but if I met myself in a dark alley, ain't both of us gunna walk out...and mos' probbly, neither of us" Jimmy "Packrat" Soos, "Partners at the Great Divide"

Last edited by Israel; 05-14-2018 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:27 AM
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I've that about Paul's words myself although I don't think he is lying. He is just thinking out loud. His thoughts, his words yet still scripture.
He hates that his kinsmen are blinded. He knows it was needed for God's purpose and plan but still he hates it and would like to take their place.

Romans 9:3
For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race,

He knows he can't do that so in Romans 11, he hopes.
In Romans 11 Paul is still trying to show God's plan for the three groups, the Christian Jews, the Christian Gentiles, and the non-believing Jews.
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Old 05-14-2018, 02:14 PM
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I've that about Paul's words myself although I don't think he is lying. He is just thinking out loud. His thoughts, his words yet still scripture.
He hates that his kinsmen are blinded. He knows it was needed for God's purpose and plan but still he hates it and would like to take their place.

Romans 9:3
For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race,

He knows he can't do that so in Romans 11, he hopes.
In Romans 11 Paul is still trying to show God's plan for the three groups, the Christian Jews, the Christian Gentiles, and the non-believing Jews.
Yes...Paul is not lying.
Nor is he given to hyperbole. Or flourish.

But flourish...he does. Because he was not given to it.
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I ain't the most self aware man, Bobby, but if I met myself in a dark alley, ain't both of us gunna walk out...and mos' probbly, neither of us" Jimmy "Packrat" Soos, "Partners at the Great Divide"
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Old 05-14-2018, 02:44 PM
1gr8bldr 1gr8bldr is offline
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This is my verses that proves that Paul never heard of eternal suffering in he11
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Old 05-14-2018, 10:55 PM
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This is my verses that proves that Paul never heard of eternal suffering in he11
While I share your beliefs on eternal death, what is it about this verse that proves Paul never heard of eternal suffering in He11?
Paul describes it as a separation from Christ. I guess if he thought it was eternal suffering in He11, he would have said, "I wish that I myself could spend an eternity suffering in He11 for the sake of my people."
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:03 PM
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Paul wanted to be like Jesus. Isn't there a bit of irony in that? We should all strive to be like Jesus yet at the same time it's frowned upon to think we will eventually become like Jesus.

I think the LDS may be one Church that's OK with the concept.

Paul wished he could take the place of his kinsmen yet he had to know that was what Jesus did. Paul desired to be like Christ in his poverty, suffering, and death.

Philippians 3:10
I want to know Christ--yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,

Not in a bad way but a loving way. There is a big difference.

"becoming like him in his death"

I'm sure to Paul this was more than resurrecting.
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:14 PM
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Interesting also is that even though Paul wrote part of our scripture, lead by the very Spirit of God, he still wanted to know Jesus.
He said "I want to know Christ, by becoming like him in his death, if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead.”
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Old 05-15-2018, 06:55 AM
1gr8bldr 1gr8bldr is offline
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Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
While I share your beliefs on eternal death, what is it about this verse that proves Paul never heard of eternal suffering in He11?
Paul describes it as a separation from Christ. I guess if he thought it was eternal suffering in He11, he would have said, "I wish that I myself could spend an eternity suffering in He11 for the sake of my people."
No one would want to suffer in he11 forever and ever and ever for the sake of his people. He might forgo heaven for them, but not go to he11 for them. Plus.... there is no implying that their not accepting Jesus is anything other than a missed opportunity.
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Old 05-16-2018, 03:37 PM
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No one would want to suffer in he11 forever and ever and ever for the sake of his people. He might forgo heaven for them, but not go to he11 for them. Plus.... there is no implying that their not accepting Jesus is anything other than a missed opportunity.
Dats sum rock solid eisegesis rite dere Bro. Solidly on par with some of the best thats ever been displayed on this forum.

You know, thinking back.....this may a c t u a l l y be the first fruity concept I’ve ever seen proposed that Artfuldodger didn’t agree with, and I’m not sure what that means.

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Old 05-16-2018, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
Interesting also is that even though Paul wrote part of our scripture, lead by the very Spirit of God, he still wanted to know Jesus.
He said "I want to know Christ, by becoming like him in his death, if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead.”
Amen Art!
We could be reminded also of our brother John.

Who, seeing Jesus while on Patmos...fell at His feet as though dead.
On the one hand it is fearsome to consider. One who knew the Lord, well enough to lay his own head upon his breast...now sees as he has never seen before.
But it likewise speaks, that as what was once perceived...and even very welcoming in that perception (Jesus didn't say..."get your head off me, you have no idea who I am!"...no, I am persuaded He was very very glad of it...Jesus never despises even the slightest recognition of need of Him)

But, seeing...and the more seeing...is our honor, privilege, and calling. How to express this...rightly...is hard, actually impossible...to me. But I don't doubt the Lord's ability.
How Lamb and Lion are one.

If we meet Lion without knowledge of the Lamb's heart...we flee. And yes...as Lion He is all of terrible. Fleeing is all and only undeniable effort.
But if we meet Lamb, thinking "there are no teeth nor claw to Him" we likewise "miss Him" in an engendering of a base familiarity, a casual regard...that is no less harmful to the soul.
Flight...and/or casualness each have a price in extracting from the soul a blindness (though necessary) resident. Our Lord is neither indulgent...nor unforgiving...but we can gain no advantage "over Him" in either sight.

He is not "our Lion" to unleash upon anyone we choose, anymore than He is "our Lamb" to keep to our own numbing comfort. He is...who He is.



Paul could say, and did...with complete honesty in truth..."who loved me and gave Himself for me" while likewise saying "knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men". It is not that Paul knew him as "both" (so to speak) as though Jesus Christ is an either/or. Well, what is he, then?
He is Lord and Savior.

We may be inclined to think or even say "He is both"...but even then...somehow "both" lends itself to finding a line where one thing exists "to a something"...while on the other side of that line...another thing exists "to a something" that is unlike the other.

Something silly. We eat a thing and say "gee this is both salty...and sweet!" And in our minds...salty exists as one thing, and sweet, another. And to thinking...there is a line between them...and on that line exists "neither salty nor sweet".

But we are learning...in the Lord...there is no contradiction. He is not either/or.

He is Lord. He is Savior. There is no line "in there" (God help me not be clever) of neitherness.

We will celebrate salvation...long after all thought and memory and even smallest smirch of sin and lack cannot be seen.
And likewise bow in a place where fear isn't forbidden...because it needn't be...having fulfilled all its work to reveal...joy.


The joy...of bowing to Another. We are invited to practice...even now. So that what may yet in appearance seem strange, will to us begin to be known...more...as home.

I remember that old thing I have heard oft repeated about the child being commanded to sit...and replies when forced to: "but inside I am standing up".

What a place the Lord has come to!...To find us, and bring us home.

And then...from there...find a sending.

Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man.
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I ain't the most self aware man, Bobby, but if I met myself in a dark alley, ain't both of us gunna walk out...and mos' probbly, neither of us" Jimmy "Packrat" Soos, "Partners at the Great Divide"

Last edited by Israel; 05-17-2018 at 05:13 AM.
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