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  #26  
Old 05-15-2018, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by WaltL1 View Post
There are differences that would come into play for example if you "order" the pill your intended usage of it would be accepted.
If you go the gun counter and say "I need a gun so I can kill myself" you will probably be shown a squirt gun.
And I would imagine we would have to apply the same philosophy to everything anybody ever committed suicide with.
So I reject the question
Why would you have to order the pill? Shouldn't you be able to just go get one like a gun?

Think of it this way. In the PF I argued against the notion of people being allowed to have deadly substances like anthrax or C4 without some sort of permit. If we should be able to have those things without restriction then why not death pills?
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Old 05-15-2018, 03:07 PM
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Your post made me wonder how much people are opposed to a pill because they think it makes it too easy.
Nobody depressed enough to commit suicide is of sound mind to make any important decisions.
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  #28  
Old 05-15-2018, 03:28 PM
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Nobody depressed enough to commit suicide is of sound mind to make any important decisions.
OK. So what does that have to do with their right to take their own life? Are we still talking about rights or something else?
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  #29  
Old 05-15-2018, 07:16 PM
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Nobody depressed enough to commit suicide is of sound mind to make any important decisions.
Why does suicide HAVE to be associated with depression?
Why cant one make a rational, competent decision that its time to go?
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  #30  
Old 05-15-2018, 07:51 PM
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UPDATE

I intended some sarcasm with my post comparing guns and PAS

That said, a link off drudge said the PAS law in cali may be tossed out for procedural reasons.

The AG has time to appeal.
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  #31  
Old 05-15-2018, 08:19 PM
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Why does suicide HAVE to be associated with depression?
Why cant one make a rational, competent decision that its time to go?
Why do you need assistance?
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  #32  
Old 05-15-2018, 10:07 PM
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Why do you need assistance?
You mean Doctor's assistance?
Currently its the most humane/painless/cleanest/least traumatizing for people who would prefer you didn't do it, process we have.
People that are making a rational, conscience decision would find that much more appealing than splattering their brains on the wall for someone else to find.
I would think.
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  #33  
Old 05-15-2018, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ambush80 View Post
Why would you have to order the pill? Shouldn't you be able to just go get one like a gun?

Think of it this way. In the PF I argued against the notion of people being allowed to have deadly substances like anthrax or C4 without some sort of permit. If we should be able to have those things without restriction then why not death pills?
I'm still having trouble with your premise. I get the path you are trying to go down but I find its premise faulty by giving the gun a specified purpose ie suicide and trying to make the comparison to something that has only one purpose ie suicide pill.
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people being allowed to have deadly substances like anthrax or C4 without some sort of permit.
The Walmart was fresh out when I was there
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If we should be able to have those things without restriction then why not death pills?
I don't think we should have anthrax or C4 or death pills without restriction.
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  #34  
Old 05-16-2018, 07:46 AM
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Switzerland has it right.
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by WaltL1 View Post
I'm still having trouble with your premise. I get the path you are trying to go down but I find its premise faulty by giving the gun a specified purpose ie suicide and trying to make the comparison to something that has only one purpose ie suicide pill.

The Walmart was fresh out when I was there

I don't think we should have anthrax or C4 or death pills without restriction.
Disclaimer: I am not arguing for suicide pills.

A man buys a 12 gauge like this.
Yes, it could be used for rabbit hunting.
It could be used on sporting clays.
But...(and regardless of all the other assumptions I'd prefer to address already in the mix of this argument/discussion...specifically as to "what is a right?") generally, we may (?) agree what this is for.
Do we agree its use is best suited for and to a man seeking to deliver himself from a situation he may think could occur(and from which he probably imagines he has a legitimate right).
Use though, despite seeming intent (and what could be surmised of it by observers) is really the only thing that ultimately bears the truer testimony. Intents, will, desires...all must submit to use. But even then...is use the final word? (I find that a big question, knowing absolutely, I can "make no other" even consider it).

One side says "suicide pill" is absolutely (solely because we ordain it) only for...one thing.
But even in the assumptions we may have about that shotgun and intentions regarding it as perhaps varied. we may still find even more variation.

The man who once may have even envisioned himself (if the situation arose) grabbing the gun and "blowing away" illegitimate and unwanted intruders...may find them scurrying out of harms way (and in fright for their lives) from his house...when they saw him merely rack it.
(A cop once said "get a pump action"...for even if they are not yet through the door, and they hear that on the other side...they know what that implies.)

So...could a man, does a man...have the right to then (even in the case of s suicide pill) say..."I don't think your assumptions about me purchasing it are quite correct"

"I know you assume it is for one thing only..."

"But, I want it...just in case..." (Watch a good spy movie! for starters)

The question is (for me)..."Is a man "free" by right...to have what does not enter into needing justification...by the assumptions...of others?"

BTW, I believe all men already have a built in self destruct button...it's called "their own lives", and they took it before they knew will to...in their very first breath. To what use they will put it to is yet for the adjudicating. Someone has got a foot already "in my door" and convincing me daily of its best use. Hate it...be separated from it...be free of its suicidal impetus and impulse to end itself...by taking matters "into its own hands".

But, I am just a beginner at this. I know...I am not good at it.

But who knows if the best use of a shotgun...may simply be as a door stop? To keep one open...of course. Or a leveler for a troublesome table, or a makeshift handle...for a water pump.

Vendors assume the obligation of assumptions about whatever product they seek to sell. What a man may give freely...has no such restriction of obligation. He is absolutely free to not care at all...what he gives...may be used for.

Beating swords into plowshares seems a work, but not when one has seen a harvest...waiting. Just "out of sight" seemingly.

Look...I met a man so full of powder and shot that had he chosen to "go off" the universe itself could not survive it. But...he was free...not to. He wasn't selling...a thing. But repurchasing...what is already...His own. Almost too crazy, especially when seeing what He paid.
But in that "almost" hangs all.
And I...am not...almost...your brother.
Who...doesn't need a right...to speak?
Just...does?


Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Sometimes the learning of what a man could say and do...but does not...is no less important in "sizing him up" than what is at very first...only seen and heard...of him.
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Last edited by Israel; 05-16-2018 at 10:43 AM.
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  #36  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:57 PM
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What do you all think about it?
Itís a broad spectrum that stretches from hospice care to arguably, abortion. May want to be a bit more specific with your parameters.
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  #37  
Old 05-16-2018, 04:44 PM
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In my opinion, in this instance, it's murder and premeditated.

As bogus as 90% of psychiatric diagnoses are, that's ONE slippery slope.

On the flip side I worked Critical Care for years and it was, and still is very common to place someone who is suffering, no hope of recovery, and literally dying a slow death on a morphine drip to both ease and speed the course along.

There is a TIME to die. We have just come so far with our technology that in many instances we can revive and sustain shells of persons who should by all rights HAVE died. In many instances the surviving family is not prepared for the often suddenness of whatever catastrophic event befalls the loved one, and it often takes a while for them to come to the conclusion that granny, for all practical purposes, died at home and it's just the drugs and ventilator that's substaining her. Some never do, and sadly some will keep them alive to keep the check coming in one more month. I've seen hundreds of people die; some with dignity, but most not.
Only one really stands out in my mind: an elderly man with failing lungs. He simply asked me to pull the curtain and let him spend his last minutes with his family at his bedside. I did. In my mind, he died with dignity.

Sorry for the rambling.
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  #38  
Old 05-16-2018, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Israel View Post
Disclaimer: I am not arguing for suicide pills.

A man buys a 12 gauge like this.
Yes, it could be used for rabbit hunting.
It could be used on sporting clays.
But...(and regardless of all the other assumptions I'd prefer to address already in the mix of this argument/discussion...specifically as to "what is a right?") generally, we may (?) agree what this is for.
Do we agree its use is best suited for and to a man seeking to deliver himself from a situation he may think could occur(and from which he probably imagines he has a legitimate right).
Use though, despite seeming intent (and what could be surmised of it by observers) is really the only thing that ultimately bears the truer testimony. Intents, will, desires...all must submit to use. But even then...is use the final word? (I find that a big question, knowing absolutely, I can "make no other" even consider it).

One side says "suicide pill" is absolutely (solely because we ordain it) only for...one thing.
But even in the assumptions we may have about that shotgun and intentions regarding it as perhaps varied. we may still find even more variation.

The man who once may have even envisioned himself (if the situation arose) grabbing the gun and "blowing away" illegitimate and unwanted intruders...may find them scurrying out of harms way (and in fright for their lives) from his house...when they saw him merely rack it.
(A cop once said "get a pump action"...for even if they are not yet through the door, and they hear that on the other side...they know what that implies.)

So...could a man, does a man...have the right to then (even in the case of s suicide pill) say..."I don't think your assumptions about me purchasing it are quite correct"

"I know you assume it is for one thing only..."

"But, I want it...just in case..." (Watch a good spy movie! for starters)

The question is (for me)..."Is a man "free" by right...to have what does not enter into needing justification...by the assumptions...of others?"

BTW, I believe all men already have a built in self destruct button...it's called "their own lives", and they took it before they knew will to...in their very first breath. To what use they will put it to is yet for the adjudicating. Someone has got a foot already "in my door" and convincing me daily of its best use. Hate it...be separated from it...be free of its suicidal impetus and impulse to end itself...by taking matters "into its own hands".

But, I am just a beginner at this. I know...I am not good at it.

But who knows if the best use of a shotgun...may simply be as a door stop? To keep one open...of course. Or a leveler for a troublesome table, or a makeshift handle...for a water pump.

Vendors assume the obligation of assumptions about whatever product they seek to sell. What a man may give freely...has no such restriction of obligation. He is absolutely free to not care at all...what he gives...may be used for.

Beating swords into plowshares seems a work, but not when one has seen a harvest...waiting. Just "out of sight" seemingly.

Look...I met a man so full of powder and shot that had he chosen to "go off" the universe itself could not survive it. But...he was free...not to. He wasn't selling...a thing. But repurchasing...what is already...His own. Almost too crazy, especially when seeing what He paid.
But in that "almost" hangs all.
And I...am not...almost...your brother.
Who...doesn't need a right...to speak?
Just...does?


Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Sometimes the learning of what a man could say and do...but does not...is no less important in "sizing him up" than what is at very first...only seen and heard...of him.
Huh? Never mind.
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  #39  
Old 05-16-2018, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by WaltL1 View Post
Why cant one make a rational, competent decision that its time to go?
I'm split on this. One part of me says "They can." and the other part says that a "rational, competent" person by definition, wouldn't make that decision, but maybe they would.
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Old 05-16-2018, 04:55 PM
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But regardless, Dr's should have no part in ending the life of a physically health individual.
This I totally agree with for a myriad of reasons.
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  #41  
Old 05-16-2018, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by SemperFiDawg View Post
Huh? Never mind.
The suffering of a thing is only rightly understood when measured against what a man has in ability to deliver himself from it. And this...with no consequence against himself.

What man holds the right to forbid death itself?
Only the man who could have...but didn't, to Himself.

You appear in a struggle to know how that man is, and shall be rightly shared.
Me, too.
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  #42  
Old 05-16-2018, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by SemperFiDawg View Post
In my opinion, in this instance, it's murder and premeditated.

As bogus as 90% of psychiatric diagnoses are, that's ONE slippery slope.

On the flip side I worked Critical Care for years and it was, and still is very common to place someone who is suffering, no hope of recovery, and literally dying a slow death on a morphine drip to both ease and speed the course along.

There is a TIME to die. We have just come so far with our technology that in many instances we can revive and sustain shells of persons who should by all rights HAVE died. In many instances the surviving family is not prepared for the often suddenness of whatever catastrophic event befalls the loved one, and it often takes a while for them to come to the conclusion that granny, for all practical purposes, died at home and it's just the drugs and ventilator that's substaining her. Some never do, and sadly some will keep them alive to keep the check coming in one more month. I've seen hundreds of people die; some with dignity, but most not.
Only one really stands out in my mind: an elderly man with failing lungs. He simply asked me to pull the curtain and let him spend his last minutes with his family at his bedside. I did. In my mind, he died with dignity.

Sorry for the rambling.
Heartfelt post SFD. If that was rambling, it was darn good rambling.
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  #43  
Old 05-17-2018, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by SemperFiDawg View Post
I'm split on this. One part of me says "They can." and the other part says that a "rational, competent" person by definition, wouldn't make that decision, but maybe they would.
It's not an easy thing to navigate, is it?
It may be impossible.
Oh, it can be seemingly resolved among men, even easily...opinion is an easy thing to have. But when it is mined...what is there?

Can the whole of the matter be reduced to:
How far is a man "allowed" to operate outside of what another man considers rational? Or even, competent.

We hold certain matters to ourselves, but if and/or when we ask about them, or are asked...then it is manifestly a seeking of "what society am I among?" And, if/when we answer...we give indication of it.

Both the society we see ourselves among, and identify with in our answer and, to the asker, what society he now finds himself, among.

I see the difficulty in your response. But the deeper question is...where is the line of non-interference? Is there a line? Is it all non-interference...? Some interference? And if so...where, and when?

Or is it, and must be by necessity, of ...all interference?

This question is no less important to the "believer" (and I would say...far more so) and far deeper than perhaps, some realize.

For if it is all non-interference...(the question seems so easily resolved there...but with a definite "hook"...I'm assured many do not see) then one may find themselves in an isolation of such depths that it will be made clear to them they have not known at all the significance of that taken stance.

Yet...if it is "some" interference, the man has no less entered an also weighty place. When, and how much? What is legitimate "interference? What...is not? Is there an unhealthy blowback...if this is not navigated rightly?

I see your issue in your above. It is common, and common to us in trying to discern "competency" that this definition is applied for light to it:

"Is the man a danger to himself...or others?"

"Danger" there is the word that needs analyzed.
Might he "harm" himself...or others?
(Again...harm needs analyzed)

I am inclined to believe there is the implication (though not always clearly stated) and assumption...suicide might be accepted as the greatest harm...and killing no less, of another, as the greatest harm...in the word "harm", used there.

"Is he in danger (by possibility) of harming himself, or others?"

If that is the assumption (regardless of right or wrong), and competency is based upon that, then the assumption of it follows surely "the man is not competent".

If suicide be considered the ultimate of "harm (ing) of himself", (and killing be likewise the ultimate of harming another) then that man could not be found competent...who wills to kill himself...or kill another. But men, we must admit, have a hard time seeing their own will, let alone, that of another.

(I am willing to discuss this "can of worms", knowing few, if any will) For what man...resides "outside" that (ever) possibility?

The third, but less accepted (for the most painfully of obvious reason) is that it is of "all-interference".

So yes...no wonder it is "hard" to discern.
And I no less see the struggle of another who has already stated in another thread, another place, "everything we do has effects stretching outward from us"...not verbatim.

A man may say "I have the right to suicide" and (so many other "things") and others may even indeed applaud it. But no man has any power in himself to negate consequence of action. And action starts in conception, and conception leads to "birthing" words, and words...lead inexorably to actions.

And again, no man is immune to bearing the consequence of action. (take away "forgive me"...and/or "I am sorry" and watch all marriage, friendship, any comfort of relationship...likewise vanish) Is that the society...one asks for?

Is it best if all be resolved to only "non-interference"?

Like Don Corleone told Michael: "The one who comes to you with this Barzini meeting, he's the traitor" So is the one who believes he can answer surely and definitively "yes". Man wants no interference with his will to any frustration...only because he does not know. He has no idea to what slaughter his own will would lead.

Nevertheless, Jesus has mercy...for the "not knowing".

But...man may ask for help...ask for interference. He may just find it is endless, "this help" he needs in being interfered with...when he sees how very very incompetent he is. And how thoughtless he truly is, even in his own brilliance.
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Last edited by Israel; 05-17-2018 at 06:18 AM.
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  #44  
Old 05-17-2018, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by SemperFiDawg View Post
I'm split on this. One part of me says "They can." and the other part says that a "rational, competent" person by definition, wouldn't make that decision, but maybe they would.
Quote:
the other part says that a "rational, competent" person by definition, wouldn't make that decision,
That's probably true 90% of the time I'm guessing.
But I definitely think there is that small number who's mind is working great but physically they are shot, may have some debilitating disease, know what the future holds and what their quality of life is going to be and would just rather just go out on a high note instead of languishing in a hospital bed for who knows how long waiting on inevitable death.
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  #45  
Old 05-17-2018, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by NCHillbilly View Post
Yes. The Constitution doesn't guarantee your right to keep and eat pills.
The Constitution also guarantees you the Right to Life, Liberty and the PURSUIT of Happiness.

It does not guarantee you the right to Death, Depression and the Pursuit of Sadness.
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  #46  
Old 05-17-2018, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Miguel Cervantes View Post
The Constitution also guarantees you the Right to Life, Liberty and the PURSUIT of Happiness.

It does not guarantee you the right to Death, Depression and the Pursuit of Sadness.
Can you quote for me the exact passage in the constitution that makes those guarantees and denies the others? I've read my copy and don't find either in there.

I do find these lines that might hold some relevance on the matter.

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
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  #47  
Old 05-17-2018, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Miguel Cervantes View Post
The Constitution also guarantees you the Right to Life, Liberty and the PURSUIT of Happiness.

It does not guarantee you the right to Death, Depression and the Pursuit of Sadness.
So just out of curiosity, how would you apply (if it all) this -
Quote:
The Constitution also guarantees you the Right to Life, Liberty and the PURSUIT of Happiness.
To this -
Quote:
that small number who's mind is working great but physically they are shot, may have some debilitating disease, know what the future holds and what their quality of life is going to be and would just rather just go out on a high note instead of languishing in a hospital bed for who knows how long waiting on inevitable death.
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  #48  
Old 05-18-2018, 05:36 AM
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The whole of the question of suicide is crazily difficult.
I don't think we've yet defined terms well enough...but then I seem to always be arguing that in some measure. We (to me) talk about G&H, or Y&Z without really addressing A&B.

The fellow who jumps on a grenade? The U-2 pilot (who may or may not use the pill)...the guy who "draws fire" and discovers he drew a little more than he'd hoped, the guy who radios in an airstrike on his own position once "they're inside the wire"?

How bout this guy? The one who got the face transplant, now quite obviously "wanting to live" (at least a little more) whose failed shotgun blast left him needing one.

And we have not yet even begun to touch upon the most essential to any argument and particularly this discussion...what is a "right"?

Do "rights" exist? Is even the concept of rights...right?

How bout this guy?

Captain: "I want you guys to take that machine gun nest"

Private: "That's a suicide mission sir, count me out"

Captain: "That's insubordination and I will shoot you on the spot"

Private: "On what grounds sir?"

Captain "You swore...an oath"

Private: "Indeed I did sir. That I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed"

Captain: "See? I'm duly appointed and I am giving you an order!"

Private: "Sir, the Constitution I swore to protect and defend guarantees me the right to 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' none of which I see if I run up that hill." And sir...I do see a prioritization even in the oath.

Captain: "well it also says you swore to obey"

Private: "well sir, that's only what the oath says, but the Constitution has no provision in it for me to swear to anything at all. Does the President's and his "officers appointed" authority come from the Constitution, or supersede it?
So, if you "got me" to swear that oath...(and that by trickeration and duress) that you now say is superior over me than the Constitution is...what am I defending? The oath...or the Constitution? Your right to give me an order? Are you saying that is superior to the Constitution? If so, you are saying your rights exceed the Constitution...and maybe I should shoot you on the spot for being a domestic enemy of it.
Where did you get this power, Captain, to exceed the Constitution?"

Captain: "You ignoramus...it's in the Constitution...the right to raise an army"

Private: (Running away)..."Sorry sir, I recant! I recant! I won't shoot you, but I will pity you...for believing a document that can establish by its claimed supremacy of law certain guarantees...yet in your mind now propounds to exceed those lawful guarantees, and reserves to itself...the right to, by finding exemption and creating space where promised rights...may be suspended. By which recognition of those rights it claims as its authority.
Sir, that ain't freedom...that's tyranny."

"Sir, you been played!"

Captain: (shooting wildly, lousily, ineptly, clumsily, foolishly, somehow manages to blow the brains out of a man far wiser than he)




This is not embedded due to some language.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHIdqThwNzI
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Last edited by Israel; 05-18-2018 at 10:59 AM.
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  #49  
Old 05-19-2018, 07:14 AM
Redoak4570 Redoak4570 is offline
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Having had family members suffer for years, with no hope of recovery, I feel very strongly that while we as individuals are of good health and sound mind, should be able to decide to end our life if faced with disease from which we will never recover. We humanely end the suffering of our pets when it’s time so why should human lives linger on until the body finally dies? If I have terminal cancer (as a friend currently has) I’d like the opportunity to spend time with my family and then have the doctor come in and end my suffering. I don’t think that just because I’m have trouble coping with life I should be able to have a doctor end it all. I do think if I’m suffering from a terminal disease I should be able to decide when I’m tired of hurting and ask for relief.
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Old 05-19-2018, 08:20 AM
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Spotlite Spotlite is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaltL1 View Post
Why does suicide HAVE to be associated with depression?
Why cant one make a rational, competent decision that its time to go?
Depression is the leading cause. Must be a connection.
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