Billy Graham.

If one "knows" God, and they would have to be called in order to "know" God , then surely they would "know" Jesus since they are one in the same.
So when God calls an Eskimo, he knows Jesus by knowing God.

gemcgrew said:

God draws them to Christ.

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I would agree, did Noah "know" Jesus?

gemcgrew said:

I am not ignoring the question. When our fist baby was miscarried, this topic weighed heavy on me. I searched and searched and searched for a definitive answer on the matter.

The end result was trusting God.

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I am sorry for you loss Gem. Miscarriage has affected my nephews family also, and then they lost a baby boy at 5 days of age from trisomy 13. It is a very difficult thing, and I am not sure how a family can endure it without trusting that God is in control and that He has everything under control.

I have found thru my own life and that of my family that God is enough. When times are good, He is enough. When times are bad, He is enough. His mercy is new every morning, and His grace is sufficient for me.

Artfuldodger said:

I would agree, did Noah "know" Jesus?

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Yes

John14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

NE GA Pappy said:

but we have the law, therefore we recognize sin.

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“We” , you and I have the law because we are competent enough to comprehend it. People NOT competent to do this don’t have it. I think that’s what (in part) Paul was speaking to in Romans 4-5.

Guess we disagree on this one. I couldn’t hold someone who’s not mentally/devolpmentally competent to comprehend the Law responsible for keeping it, and God is infinitely more loving and merciful than me.

NE GA Pappy said:

I am not sure I believe in election as to people having no choice in the matter.

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One thing is for sure regarding election, we have enough free will to be culpable before God.

hobbs27 said:

That's a tough one for folks that believe in one of two outcomes. Eternal life in heaven or eternal life in torments. I'm glad I don't have to consider that as the options.

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NE GA Pappy said:

Ignorance is bliss... or in this case ignorance is salvation.

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I think this is true only where it pertains to the incompetent persons, again the unborn, mentally deficient, and children not “of age”. Those who have not heard of the Gospel of Christ but not one of the above are still culpable for General Revelation according to Roman’s 1.

gemcgrew said:

Billy said that the believer does not even have to be conscious of Christ.

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Again, a quote, in context, with a source/link would be appreciated. Paul said the same thing regarding Abraham and his faith. Was this the same context? If so was Paul wrong? If not, in what context was he speaking?

I GET the fact that you don’t care for Billy Graham’s theology, I just haven’t found anything that you state about it true. That’s a problem.

SemperFiDawg said:

I think this is true only where it pertains to the incompetent persons, again the unborn, mentally deficient, and children not “of age”. Those who have not heard of the Gospel of Christ but not one of the above are still culpable for General Revelation according to Roman’s 1.

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I think you may have stated how God will judge those that are ignorant of the Law just from having a general revelation only as per Romans 1. Such as Native Americans born 2,000 years ago.
What is your feelings on this aspect of not being competent enough to understand the Law? In a way they are not mentally competent enough to understand fully.

How do you see 1 Corinthians 7:14 in relation to the children of Sodom?

For the Christian wife brings holiness to her marriage, and the Christian husband brings holiness to his marriage. Otherwise, your children would not be holy, but now they are holy.

Artfuldodger quote; Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
I would agree, did Noah "know" Jesus?

welderguy said:

Yes

John14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

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Then when God calls one of his elect as Dr Graham suggest from the Muslim or Buddhist world, this person would be aware of Christ in the same way Noah was aware of Christ.

But what you and Gem are saying is that they would be aware of Christ at their effectual calling. Graham said they wouldn't be conscious of Jesus before this effectual calling.
I'm pretty sure that after their effectual calling they were aware just as Noah was made aware. Either that or they knew Christ because they knew God.

SemperFiDawg said:

One thing is for sure regarding election, we have enough free will to be culpable before God.

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God has determined to judge us.

We are culpable because we are not free.

SemperFiDawg said:

Again, a quote, in context, with a source/link would be appreciated. Paul said the same thing regarding Abraham and his faith.

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I see you.

SemperFiDawg said:

I GET the fact that you don’t care for Billy Graham’s theology, I just haven’t found anything that you state about it true. That’s a problem.

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I don't care for Billy Graham. I do praise God for men like Charles Finney, Billy Graham, etc.

God used them in a powerful way.

SemperFiDawg said:

I couldn’t hold someone who’s not mentally/devolpmentally competent to comprehend the Law responsible for keeping it, and God is infinitely more loving and merciful than me.

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So children, conceived and born in sin, are given a free pass until they are old enough to understand the gospel, but there is no mention or teaching on this in the entire Bible.

Yet we have some scripture that seem to say their salvation is dependent on the fathers standing before God, yet that can't be true.

Strange.

NE GA Pappy said:

So children, conceived and born in sin, are given a free pass until they are old enough to understand the gospel, but there is no mention or teaching on this in the entire Bible.

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Again, I see Romans 4-5 addressing this.

C.S. Lewis put it this way

"Here is another thing which used to puzzle me. Is it not frightfully unfair that this new life should be confined to people who have heard of Christ and been able to believe in Him? But the truth is God has not told us what His arrangements about the other people are. We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ [see: John 14:6]; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him."

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SemperFiDawg said:

Again, I see Romans 4-5 addressing this.

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I am guessing you meant Rom 4:15 that you referenced a few pages back.

If you look at it in context, is it saying that lacking knowledge of the law results in no sin?

I think, rather it is saying that faith is the necessary ingredient of salvation, rather than knowledge of the law.
It is necessary for 14 and 15 to be read together as one sentence


13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

One thing for sure about this subject.... I am glad it is not up to me to decide on the salvation for anyone. Thank you Lord Jesus.

I just would like to understand, but may not be able to on this side of eternity

NE GA Pappy said:

One thing for sure about this subject.... I am glad it is not up to me to decide on the salvation for anyone. Thank you Lord Jesus.

I just would like to understand, but may not be able to on this side of eternity

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amen

SemperFiDawg said:

C.S. Lewis put it this way

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Quote:
"Here is another thing which used to puzzle me. Is it not frightfully unfair that this new life should be confined to people who have heard of Christ and been able to believe in Him? But the truth is God has not told us what His arrangements about the other people are. We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ [see: John 14:6]; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him."

So CS Lewis who writes: "although Jesus is the only way to Heaven, this does not necessarily imply that Jesus cannot save those who don't acknowledge Him through no fault of their own."(end quote)

This perhaps being children, retarded people, and foreigners to the Gospel?

I've considered this concept and it is not anything new.

It sounds like everyone who hasn't heard may get saved. Every child, every retarded person, every foreigner to the gospel. Based on "Is it not frightfully unfair."

What about those blinded to the light by their own religion? Even someone who is an enemy to the Church such as Saul?

Graham said: “He’s calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ, because they’ve been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus, but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don’t have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think they are saved, and that they’re going to be with us in heaven.”

This by Graham is more in line with Election. God is calling them out of various worlds. They may not know the "name" Jesus but they are called by God none the less.
Maybe it's similar to what CS Lewis is saying.

Similar to God calling Saul or when he will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication.
Like when he saved Lot's two daughters but took David's son.