sighting in my hawken replica

Okay, This being the first season I've had to prepare for BP week, I have been trying to sight in my hawken. I am using iron sights which I am familiar with. I killed 2 bucks with my iron sights on my 30-30 last year. One at 70yds the other at 40.
I'm using a plastic fold out table and a pair of molded sandbags from wally world.
I cant seem to get the gun to pattern at all. Its all over the place. I switched back to fffg goex from the BH209. I'm shooting .495 PRB's with a pre lubed patch. Started with 80 gr. reduced to 70gr. I have not adjusted the sights. I keep shooting at the center of the bulls eye. I run a patch with a tiny bit of solvent and several dry patches thru the barrel after ea shot. Is that wrong to do?
I also allow the barrel to cool for 10-15 min between shots. (95 deg OAT) I erected a shade umbrella over the table and gun during cool down.
I'm starting to think maybe the barrel bedding/mount is too loose? It has a flat pin to remove and barrel comes out of the stock.
Any pointers would be appriciated. Should I switch to maxiballs packed with lube? No patch?

Roadking65 said:

Okay, This being the first season I've had to prepare for BP week, I have been trying to sight in my hawken. I am using iron sights which I am familiar with. I killed 2 bucks with my iron sights on my 30-30 last year. One at 70yds the other at 40.
I'm using a plastic fold out table and a pair of molded sandbags from wally world.
I cant seem to get the gun to pattern at all. Its all over the place. I switched back to fffg goex from the BH209. I'm shooting .495 PRB's with a pre lubed patch. Started with 80 gr. reduced to 70gr. I have not adjusted the sights. I keep shooting at the center of the bulls eye. I run a patch with a tiny bit of solvent and several dry patches thru the barrel after ea shot. Is that wrong to do?
I also allow the barrel to cool for 10-15 min between shots. (95 deg OAT) I erected a shade umbrella over the table and gun during cool down.
I'm starting to think maybe the barrel bedding/mount is too loose? It has a flat pin to remove and barrel comes out of the stock.
Any pointers would be appriciated. Should I switch to maxiballs packed with lube? No patch?

Click to expand...

What twist rate is it? Some of those faster twists just don't like roundballs.

Well I've read its 1:48 but I dont know how to measure that. I can tell you looking into the barrel it looks like a very slow twist. I purchased the gun used. It is not an original its a TC. I don't know if that makes a difference or not.
Thanks

Did you check your patches to see what they look like after the shot ? Sometimes the TC shoot a conical bullet better.

My 54 Hawken likes the Hornady 425 Great Plains bullets. The 1 in 48 twist seem to take a conical better in what I have shot. I use 70 grains Pyrodex. I have no issues pushing that chunk of lead thru a deer. Just my .2cents worth lots guys no more than me on here.

Try different patches....BP guns need a tight seal
to ensure consistent pressure for best accuracy..
If your ball/patch combo loads easily, you may
not be getting good seal and could be causing
poor accuracy....

350 grain T/C Maxi-hunters shoot great in my Hawken with the 1:48 twist. And they're devastating on deer.

1-48" should shoot a PRB just fine with the right patches. Another item to consider is how consistently do you seat the ball on the powder. Inconsistent seating can change velocity and POI.

My routine is to seat and then let the ram rod "drop" in the barrel until it bounces on it's own. If the drop results in no bounce then the ball is still settling down on the powder.

I have to apply a fair amount of pressure to start the prb combo, but once I start with the ramrod, I don't think I use harder than normal pressure. One thing I'm doing is tamping the ramrod down with the palm of my hand once it bottoms out to make sure its seated, is that not a good idea? Not real hard just a good bump or two. I also leave the butt of the rifle on my boot not the ground.

I haven't tried using a different patch. Also I have not tried the Maxi bullets.
I haven't even seen a used patch on the ground yet. I will look next time.

I do not have anyone around to "show" me how but I didn't add any bore butter just the pre lubed patch (yellow in color from lube I'm assuming) on top of the powder.

The rifle has a set trigger and then the firing trigger and its like a hair trigger. Is there a way to adjust that? Is that what the tiny screw in between the triggers is for?

Thanks again
RK

NC Hillbilly, what grain powder load do you use with your maxi bullets? I see deermaster13 uses 70 gr. pyrodex. I have the fffg goex. Do you just lube them with bore butter in the grooves and then put the bullet right on top of the powder with no plug or patches right?

Thanks
RK

Roadking65 said:

NC Hillbilly, what grain powder load do you use with your maxi bullets? I see deermaster13 uses 70 gr. pyrodex. I have the fffg goex. Do you just lube them with bore butter in the grooves and then put the bullet right on top of the powder with no plug or patches right?

Thanks
RK

Click to expand...

With the 350 grain maxi-hunters I use 90 grains of ffg or Pyrodex in the Hawken. With the finer-grained fffg you would want to use considerably less, or you will be running too much pressure. They come pre-lubed, yeah, just seat it right on the powder, no patch.

One other question: are you getting good, fast ignition? Slight hang-fires from a dirty nipple or bolster can wreak havoc with grouping, too.

Just to be sure:
You wrote- I do not have anyone around to "show" me how but I didn't add any bore butter just the pre lubed patch (yellow in color from lube I'm assuming) on top of the powder.

Are you saying you load powder, then put the patch down on the powder and then load a ball on top of that?

If so then you are doing it wrong for sure and would get the kind of results you describe. If however, you are allowing the patch to wrap around the ball and seating the ball/patch combination then there are a number of things left to try.

Your gun is a Thompson Center Hawken or Renegade. I don't see what caliber the gun is, .50 or .54, if .54 it's most likely a Renegade. Regardless it has a 1:48 twist.
Either one is capable of fine accuracy with a roundball, you just have to keep shooting and find the right loads. I have read that the original Hawken rifles had a 1:48 twist.
Back in the 70's and 80's I owned a Renegade in .54, nobody told me the gun wasn't supposed to be accurate so I shot a lot of matches over the years. I took a lot of trophys home including a 3rd place in 50 yard offhand at the National Muzzleloading Rifle Association regional match held at Riverbend gun club outside Atlanta.
My loads were; At 25 and 50 yards 55 grains of 2F, 230 round ball, pillowticking patch lubed with Crisco.
At 100 yards 90 grains of 2F.
For hunting I started with 120 grains of 2F but later dropped to 110. These hunting loads shot about a 4 inch group at 100 yards, much less accurate than the 55 and 90 gr load.

Did you buy the rifle used? If the rifle was not properly cleaned before storage then the black powder residue has most likely caused corrosion in your barrel. BP residue is very corrosive and must be completely cleaned out after every shooting session. This would cause the kind of grouping you are talking about.
Clean the barrel and then run a wet patch several times down your barrel. Does it feel smooth and slick or do you feel roughness or rough spots? Rough spots indicate corrosion.
The rifle does not need bedding unless someone has been gouging out the wood in the barrel channel. BP rifles are different than centerfires. The flat pin is historically correct and the barrel channels are usually looser than a centerfire.
There is a little screw between the triggers. This is the adjustment for the front trigger. Be real careful as too light can cause unwanted hammer drops.
Now for the parts I hate to mention so don't take offense.
You may be flinching. It is not uncommon for a BP gun to cause a shooter to flinch. If so, you are not alone. When I started shooting flintlocks my groups were terrible and I recognized I had a bad flinch. Sometimes these rifles are called flinchlocks. I spent a couple of months learning not to flinch.
If possible I would find someone else to shoot your rifle off your benchrest. If he shoots tight groups then you know the rifle is fine and you need to work on that flinch. If he shoots the same size groups you have been getting then that indicates something in the rifle or loading.

This link is pretty good. It tells most of what you need to know about loading and shooting a ML.

http://hunting.about.com/od/blackpowder/ht/htloadbprifle.htm

When you seat the ball/patch combo, just apply
firm pressure to seat the ball , but do not exert
to much pressure....

If you still can't get it to shoot send me a PM and I will try to get with you at the range.

Ok Thanks for all the responses!!

NCHillbilly: Since I switched back to the Goex I use the 777primers and have no noticeable lag between trigger pull and ignition.

SASS249: I hold the patch over the barrel end and center it and allow the patch to wrap around the ball. Thanks I may take you up on the range time if changing a few things don't do the trick!

DarkHorse: Sorry I didn't mention its a .50 Cal. And I appriciate what you are saying about flinching. I'm usually the guy others hand thier guns to to shoot groups with. Thats why I'm a little frustrated at this. I could be, not denying that. Yes I bought the rifle used. Maybe I need to backup and do a deep cleaning? What method should I use to ensure the fouling is out of the rifling grooves?

7Mag Hunter: So tamping it is a definate no no? I should just give it a firm push?

Thank you all Very Much!
RK

SASS249 said:

If you still can't get it to shoot send me a PM and I will try to get with you at the range.

Click to expand...

I would take SASS249 up on this ASAP.

To really clean the fouling I would remove the barrel and nipple, then heat some water and melt a little bar soap in it (just a few flakes skimmed off with a sharp knife) pour the water into a small bucket be sure the nipple area is underwater. Place the breech end into the water. Wet a patch and start swabbing the barrel until it begins to pull water up and out of end of the barrel. If it has fouling you will see it come out of the nipple hole and the water will cloud. Do this a few minutes then let it sit awhile to soften any remaining fouling, then start swabbing again.
Pour out the water and stand the barrel upside down on a piece of paper and let it drain.

Personally I feel that if there is fouling in your bore then damage has already been done.
Corrosion or rust is the real problem. If a black powder rifle is not properly cleaned then it will rust. Left unchecked the barrel could be ruined.
No amount of flushing with anything will remove this rust. This is a fact.
Luckily prefit barrels are available for your TC, just take off the old and put on the new.
This a worse case scenario but a very common one. I'd let SASS249 check your barrel.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/pdfs/catalog/page_205.pdf

https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=16&t=197506

I guess one thing we have not asked:
You say it is all over the place. Exactly what distance are you shooting at and what type of group are you getting?

As others said above, I'd look at the thickness of the patch, and make sure it's the right size patch for that ball/ bore diameter.
If the patch isn't tightly squeezed into the lands and grooves as you load the gun, it isn't going to impart a good spin to the ball on the way out.

A black powder muzzle-stuffer with good iron sights and shooting patched round balls should be able to hold a 3" group at 100 yards, right? Is that a reasonable standard to expect the gun, assuming no error on the part of the shooter, and no gusty winds?

I think a good rifle should be able to shoot a 3" group at 100 yards. But a lot of variables come into play here, and most of them have to do with the shooter. The shooter must be capable of shooting 3" groups to actually have a chance to shoot one.
The quality of the barrel has a lot to do with it also. What is one barrel maker's standard of accuracy may be far below or above anothers.
Right now I have 2 flintlocks that I built years ago. One has a Rice swamped barrel in .40 caliber. When I shot it at 100 yards the group size for 5 shots was right at 3" and with primitive sights I am very pleased with that kind of accuracy.
The other one is a Colerain in .54 caliber. I haven't shot a 100 yard group with this one. But at 50 yards it will shoot a jagged hole if I do my part.
FWIW I have never shot a deer with a muzzleloader past 50 yards. So I personally don't feel the need for 100 yard groups. Especially with 63 year old eyes.
One can see the target and sights much better at 50 yards so I recommend load work done at this distance. Once you get it all worked out and are shooting good at 50, then's the time to stretch it out.