"They" in Romans 1

welderguy said:

Yes,I agree.But I believe all things which are temporal will cease to be at a future time, obviously because they are temporal.

You seem to be conveying(without plainly saying it) that some temporal things will continue to go on in existence right along with the eternal things.That makes no sense to me and is not scriptural.

If I have misunderstood you, please correct me.

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Let me plainly say this. I know of nowhere in scripture that says the cosmos will end.

Usually this conversation with futurist ends up in 2 Peter 3. Let me show what elements are..

[4747 (stoixeíon) refers to "the rudiments with which mankind . . . were indoctrinated (before the time of Christ), i.e. the elements of religious training or the ceremonial precepts common alike to the worship of Jews and of Gentiles" (J. Thayer)

Now, I believe those elements have indeed been burned with fervent heat.

So where's the biblical evidence that the cosmos will be destroyed?

hummerpoo said:

It is very difficult to use language, which God ordained to be used by temporal creatures, to communicate something that is not temporal. In Eph. 3:21 Paul wanted to communicate the limits of the reign of God within which he, Paul, wished to pray for God's glory. Above I said that "the age is the unity of time"; that is: "the age" consists of all of the subdivisions of time ("ages"), which occur with the limits of the creation. Paul here wanted to not limit his prayer for God's glory to that which occurs within creation, but expand it beyond the limiting factor of creation. Our best English word for that is probably eternity, but defining eternity without using the limiting concept of time proves quite difficult. Hobbs phrase "age without end" is a worth attempt, but still used time (age) to describe that which is not time. Paul used a somewhat different phrase, αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων which translates to "age of the ages". Kinda like "(the age)s"; plural of that which includes all temporal ages, or maybe "all of the alls". For now we are stuck with "eternity", a concept which we are not equipped to adequately define.

Hey, to describe the "world" in which God exists, we would have to be there, right. Praise God, He has promised.

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I have a french bible here were it is written ( translated) as follows:

" for all the ages and all centuries".

hobbs27 said:

Hummer. As for eternity I agree. Does this translation not better show your point? Eternity= forever and ever.

Berean Study Bible
to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

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Not really, "forever and ever" again refers to time to describe what is not time. It's like me trying to use my earthbound knowledge and experience to describe or define an "area" beyond the edge of the universe. The concept of area doesn't even apply. We must accept that we are inadequate while simultaneously acknowledging the existence.

As this relates to scripture, the inspired writers were in the same boat. The writers of the autographs and the translators are restricted to the same limits we are, so they use things like Paul's "age of the ages" or "end of the age" and "time of the end", to express the passing from this state of being to a new and totally different state of being. Descriptions of the New Jerusalem and heaven are similarly inadequate but necessarily sufficient.

hobbs27 said:

Let me plainly say this. I know of nowhere in scripture that says the cosmos will end.

Usually this conversation with futurist ends up in 2 Peter 3. Let me show what elements are..

[4747 (stoixeíon) refers to "the rudiments with which mankind . . . were indoctrinated (before the time of Christ), i.e. the elements of religious training or the ceremonial precepts common alike to the worship of Jews and of Gentiles" (J. Thayer)

Now, I believe those elements have indeed been burned with fervent heat.

So where's the biblical evidence that the cosmos will be destroyed?

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2 Corinthians 4:18

18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The cosmos would be part of that which is seen,(temporal),don't you think?
Unless you can figure out a way to convince me that I don't really see it.

welderguy said:

2 Corinthians 4:18

18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The cosmos would be part of that which is seen,(temporal),don't you think?
Unless you can figure out a way to convince me that I don't really see it.

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Everything you look around and see is temporal, your body is temporal, the building you are in is temporal, but that which is spiritual is eternal....that doesn't mean all you see will be destroyed, but all things on earth have a lifespan.. Always will. Seek that which is heavenly.

And: “In the beginning, Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; They will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed; but You remain the same, and Your years will never end.”…

hobbs27 said:

Everything you look around and see is temporal, your body is temporal, the building you are in is temporal, but that which is spiritual is eternal....that doesn't mean all you see will be destroyed, but all things on earth have a lifespan.. Always will. Seek that which is heavenly.

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Not just things ON the earth but also the earth itself and everything else that we SEE.(keyword-SEE).

Israel said:

And: “In the beginning, Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; They will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed; but You remain the same, and Your years will never end.”…

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Yes, the old covenant was passing away and the eternal new covenant was coming in and would never end.

Isa. 51:15-16

Look also at Isa. 65:17 & 66:22 Incidentally in Isaiah 65 God had predicted that the new creation ( the new covenant and new Jerusalem) would come when Israel had filled the measure of her sin and was destroyed v.7. And when did that transpire? I don't have to say it do I?

welderguy said:

Not just things ON the earth but also the earth itself and everything else that we SEE.(keyword-SEE).

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That's not scriptural welder..at least from what I have seen or has been presented so far.

hobbs27 said:

That's not scriptural welder..at least from what I have seen or has been presented so far.

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It's straight from 2 Cor.4:18.
How is it not scriptural?

Give me scripture that would say otherwise and we will get the whole sense of the matter.

welderguy said:

It's straight from 2 Cor.4:18.
How is it not scriptural?

Give me scripture that would say otherwise and we will get the whole sense of the matter.

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Is this the only place you think speaks of the end of the kosmos? There's one more that appears to, but I want to make sure we get it all out now.

OK, are there any verses stating God will not destroy the earth?

Genesis 9:13
I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth.

Genesis 9:17
So God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all life on the earth."

I know this is pertaining to only water, but was the covenant between God and the Earth or God and the life on the Earth?

Did God destroy the Earth with a flood or the life on the Earth with a flood?
Both are still here. Why? What did the flood destroy?

Maybe earth or world means "life."

Genesis 8:21-22
The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done. 22"While the earth remains, Seedtime and harvest, And cold and heat, And summer and winter, And day and night Shall not cease."

"while the earth remains?" Well eventually even time will destroy it even if God doesn't do it with intervention.

I still don't understand why God says he destroyed every living thing when we're still here.

The Ark represents Jesus. God destroyed everything, the whole earth
except those on the Ark.
Maybe the Ark(Jesus) is God's way of saying that he will no longer destroy everything. Out of everything will be those saved by Jesus.(ark)

hobbs27 said:

Is this the only place you think speaks of the end of the kosmos? There's one more that appears to, but I want to make sure we get it all out now.

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No.There are several.

Keeping with the same line of thought as 2 Cor.4:18 is Rom.8:18-25.
Although I know from previous discussions that you've got your preterist "explaination" for that too,which I don't agree with.(dead end)

But,if you can see the correlation of the spiritual/temporal, the things seen/things not seen, creature(us)/creation(cosmos) in both texts, then you should see that they support each other in context.
(note key thoughts in caps)

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this PRESENT time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which SHALL be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the CREATURE waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the CREATURE itself also SHALL BE DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And NOT ONLY THEY, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is SEEN is not hope: for what a man SEETH, why doth he yet hope for?

25 BUT IF WE HOPE FOR THAT WE SEE NOT, THEN DO WE WITH PATIENCE WAIT FOR IT.

Verse 25 goes hand in hand with 2 Cor.4:18, but Paul elaborates on it more thoroughly with much more context.

hobbs27 said:

Let me plainly say this. I know of nowhere in scripture that says the cosmos will end.

Usually this conversation with futurist ends up in 2 Peter 3. Let me show what elements are..

[4747 (stoixeíon) refers to "the rudiments with which mankind . . . were indoctrinated (before the time of Christ), i.e. the elements of religious training or the ceremonial precepts common alike to the worship of Jews and of Gentiles" (J. Thayer)

Now, I believe those elements have indeed been burned with fervent heat.

So where's the biblical evidence that the cosmos will be destroyed?

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This is from Strongs describing ELEMENTS (2 Pet.3)

Why would you go all the way down to (d) for your definition and skip over (1), (a),(b),and (c)?

1) any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal
1a) the letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds
1b) the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe
1c) the heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside
1d) the elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline
1d1) i.e. of mathematics, Euclid's geometry

The creature in Romans 8 is Israel. Their expectation is in earnest.
The creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly. The CREATURE itself also SHALL BE DELIVERED.
NOT ONLY THEY(Israel), but ourselves also.(Gentiles)

The creation looks forward to the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

We wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our body. (adoption into Israel)

We eagerly wait for our adoption, the freeing of our body.

Adoption is the redemption of our body.

"Our body" Church? Gentiles? True Children of God? Christ?

welderguy said:

This is from Strongs describing ELEMENTS (2 Pet.3)

Why would you go all the way down to (d) for your definition and skip over (1), (a),(b),and (c)?

1) any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal
1a) the letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds
1b) the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe
1c) the heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside
1d) the elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline
1d1) i.e. of mathematics, Euclid's geometry

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Actually, I believe that is from Thayer's Greek Definitions, the same author as quoted. Strong's is:
στοιχεῖον
stoicheion
stoy-khi'-on
Neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4748; something orderly in arrangement, that is, (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively): - element, principle, rudiment.
Total KJV occurrences: 7

I believe the answer to your question is that it takes a lot of doing to be able to plainly say what you plainly want to say. You have to take possibility over probability until you plainly have improbability.

hummerpoo said:

Actually, I believe that is from Thayer's Greek Definitions, the same author as quoted. Strong's is:
στοιχεῖον
stoicheion
stoy-khi'-on
Neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4748; something orderly in arrangement, that is, (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively): - element, principle, rudiment.
Total KJV occurrences: 7

I believe the answer to your question is that it takes a lot of doing to be able to plainly say what you plainly want to say. You have to take possibility over probability until you plainly have improbability.

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Thanks for pointing that out Hummer.
Hobbs,sorry for the misrepresentation.

Artfuldodger said:

The creature in Romans 8 is Israel. Their expectation is in earnest.
The creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly. The CREATURE itself also SHALL BE DELIVERED.NOT ONLY THEY(Israel),but ourselves also.(Gentiles)

The creation looks forward to the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

We wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our body. (adoption into Israel)

We eagerly wait for our adoption, the freeing of our body.

Adoption is the redemption of our body.

"Our body" Church? Gentiles? True Children of God? Christ?

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Paul was not a Gentile.He includes himself in this statement.Your whole line of thought concerning Jew/Gentile is flawed here.