Why We hate You and Why We Fight You

The changes I have seen within the Church are more towards teaching that we can't quit sinning and thus need Jesus.

This progression is moving away from the more legal issues of the Law and towards salvation by grace instead of works.

If I could quit sinning then I wouldn't need Jesus, I'd just quit sinning. I would save myself by living a righteous life.

In doing so, and focusing on changes that have already taken place blacks can marry whites, women can become preachers, men can have long hair, and women can wear pants. We can now eat in restaurants on Sunday.

I really don't know and neither does anyone what holds forth for future changes within the Church. I was just speculating about homosexuality. Who knows how it will be in the future as each younger generation appears to interpret scriptures differently than the past. They might really move towards salvation by grace and not of works.

Once one realizes he can't quit sinning and that his sins have been paid for, the freedom in Christ sets him to understand what grace truly means.

Artfuldodger said:

When I was a young gentlemen in a small little country Church we were Sabbath keepers and were required to rest on Sunday. We didn't go to stores and restaurants.

Later in the same Church we started going to stores and going fishing on Sunday. Why? What changed?

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You're asking the wrong people.

ambush80 said:

http://beta.deseretnews.com/article...re-winning-over-mainline-churches.html?pg=all

"Everybody knows that the so-called 'mainline' is now the sideline. The United Church of Christ, Presbyterians, Methodists and the Episcopalians have been shrinking at a rather prodigious rate. But that isn't because people left church, it is because people left THOSE churches," says Stark. "Groups like the Assemblies of God have doubled and redoubled in size in the same period of time."

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Agree.

Dalrymple agrees that part of the weakness of mainline churches is that they became centers of left-wing political activism. "That may be where the leadership was, coming out of the seminaries, but that was not where the congregations were."

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Exactly right.

centerpin fan said:

"Dalrymple agrees that part of the weakness of mainline churches is that they became centers of left-wing political activism. "That may be where the leadership was, coming out of the seminaries, but that was not where the congregations were."

Exactly right.

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What is it, do you think, that draws people in the seminary to political activism, specifically progressive ideas?

I think that if you go into a profession in which you want to selflessly help people then you are more concerned with fairness and harm, which are typically Liberal concerns according to Jonathan Haidt author of The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion, whom I agree with.

centerpin fan said:

You're asking the wrong people.

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I'm asking you.

Artfuldodger said:

I'm asking you.

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Based on what I see from you on a daily basis,which is your wishy washy, lack of concrete conviction on ANYTHING,quickness to question EVERYTHING,tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine,..I would guess you were not convicted to do those things you aforementioned either.Just my take.

The bottom line is : are you,or were you being led of the Spirit by faith?

Artfuldodger said:

I'm asking you.

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I have no idea, which is why I said you were asking the wrong people. I know nothing about your church, other than what you said above.

ambush80 said:

What is it, do you think, that draws people in the seminary to political activism, specifically progressive ideas?.

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I dunno. Let me think about it.

I will say that I'm reading Dinesh D'Souza's new book, Hillary's America. It's difficult to read it and think progressivism is the way to help the poor and downtrodden.

centerpin fan said:

I have no idea, which is why I said you were asking the wrong people. I know nothing about your church, other than what you said above.

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That would be a fair idea if my Church was the only one that was changing.
Getting back to the OP and his comparison to Christianity concerning changes, Why do you think the Church has changed?
Do you view changes withing the Christian community to be different from the Church changing?
Maybe you are a member of a Church that hasn't seen much change. Do you consider that a good thing?

welderguy said:

Based on what I see from you on a daily basis,which is your wishy washy, lack of concrete conviction on ANYTHING,quickness to question EVERYTHING,tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine,..I would guess you were not convicted to do those things you aforementioned either.Just my take.

The bottom line is : are you,or were you being led of the Spirit by faith?

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If I were at some point then I still am. I say yes. They Spirit has lead me away from Lordship Salvation towards Free Grace Salvation. Change can be good.
Now the Spirit is trying to lead me away from a Free will belief to an Election belief. Change can be good.

Thank you Spirit for change. Thank you Spirit for letting me lead others away from thinking they can work their way to salvation by works.
Wishy washy, I like to compare my spiritual journey to that of Paul's.

I have great hope that the Church will or is changing according to their journey as being lead by the Spirit.

God has lead other people to him by getting his people to change. God had Peter change about preaching to Cornelius and his household. Change can be good.

welderguy said:

I would guess you were not convicted to do those things you aforementioned either.Just my take.

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What things that I mentioned were you asking me if I was not convicted to do?

Artfuldodger said:

If I were at some point then I still am. I say yes. They Spirit has lead me away from Lordship Salvation towards Free Grace Salvation. Change can be good.
Now the Spirit is trying to lead me away from a Free will belief to an Election belief. Change can be good.

Thank you Spirit for change. Thank you Spirit for letting me lead others away from thinking they can work their way to salvation by works.
Wishy washy, I like to compare my spiritual journey to that of Paul's.

I have great hope that the Church will or is changing according to their journey as being lead by the Spirit.

God has lead other people to him by getting his people to change. God had Peter change about preaching to Cornelius and his household. Change can be good.

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That's true. From where I see it, men seem particularly devoted to keeping what they identify as their integrity intact. Is that not part of what might be seen in Peter's dispute in the vision? Yet, he is reproved, is he not?
And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

What may be called by some as a psycholigical term..."projection"...Jesus was not reluctant to address, (see "motes and logs".)

A predilection to identify sin/fault/lack/error as "in the other", (out there) is no more than a self defense mechanism. Jesus did something about this. In his own body, on the tree.

ambush80 said:

What is it, do you think, that draws people in the seminary to political activism, specifically progressive ideas?

I think that if you go into a profession in which you want to selflessly help people then you are more concerned with fairness and harm, which are typically Liberal concerns according to Jonathan Haidt author of The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion, whom I agree with.

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I am drawn by this question. If seminary staffs are like the regular university staffs that I have known-- most if not all are not in it "selflessly" regardless of what reason might spin or the faith might say regards fairness and harm.

And in all camps the rules of fairness don't apply to everyone especially when power and ideas becomes capital.

Artfuldodger said:

OK, I'll change my prediction to 85%. There are many Christians today that are still against mixed marriages and women having equal rights.

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Very good article on the coming storm:

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/we-have-been-warned/

Artfuldodger said:

That would be a fair idea if my Church was the only one that was changing.
Getting back to the OP and his comparison to Christianity concerning changes, Why do you think the Church has changed?

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The church believes the same creeds they believed 2,000 years ago.


Apostles' Creed:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God’s only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic and apostolic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.


Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God the Father, the Almighty, creator of heaven and earth, and of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son). With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

ambush80 said:

I was saying that Christians might feel (like the Islamists) that they are being faulted, mocked, and ostracized.

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Atheist believe they are more intellectual than believers, I believe that goes without saying, But I would respond as Paul did; "don't hate me, pity me."

If you are trying to compare Islam to Christianity, I will say there are some similarities, as almost all religions have some similarities, however, they all differ greatly on the fundamentals.

Example of change in the Church. Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation.
Certain remarried divorcees can't receive holy communion.

Pope Calls for Change In The Church. Pope Francis urges priests to be less judgmental in regards to divorce.

Did the Pope not get the memo about change?

ambush80 said:

Centerpin,

The point is that the church changes. That's undisputed.

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Yes change always happens. The question is; is it always change for the better?

ambush80 said:

Do you think that there were people who said "Not a chance EVER!!!" about some of the changes that have occurred? I think there were. There's no way you can predict what they will change on.

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I believe we can can see the way change usually goes. It is usually a relaxation of any rule or thought that is binding on some action we would like to participate in. We want society to approve of our actions.

ambush80 said:

There might come a day where the resurrection is taught as strictly metaphor. You can plug your ears and say "NO WAY!!!" but you just don't know.

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Too late the resurrection has been denied by some groups since the church at Corinth. Bring on something new. Oh yeh "there is nothing new under the sun".

ambush80 said:

I think it would be a move in the right direction.

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Atheists can believe what they choose. To be considered a "Christian" there are certain unconditional tenants of the faith that must be believed, and the bodily resurrection of Christ is one of them.

Out of curiosity, why do you care what a Christian believes?

Not exactly a change in Church dogma but most of the individuals look at birth control differently than in the 60's.
I would still consider this a change.

When the members change or their leader changes, dogma doesn't matter. Scripture interpretations change.

Dogma doesn't change, scripture doesn't change.

Artfuldodger said:

Example of change in the Church. Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation.
Divorcees can't receive holy communion.

Pope Calls for Change In The Church. Pope Francis urges priests to be less judgmental.

Did the Pope not get the memo about change?

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Who cares what the pope says? Moses gave divorce papers to some because they were heartless, sinful, men. Some people lie, some steal, some murder, are you saying there is no forgiveness available from God?