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The question is then posed...
- Thread starter EverGreen1231
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660griz
Senior Member
We are human, we look for patterns, it's what we do.
ambush80
Senior Member
I'm struggling mightily through Max Tegmark's book Our Mathematical Universe: My Quest for the Ultimate Nature of Reality. I'm not halfway through yet and I was confused after the first chapter. He's trying to make theoretical math as accessible as possible for a layperson but it's still mind boggling. I'm trudging through not fully comprehending everything he's talking about but what I notice is that he's very clear about where these theories come from. Anyone with the patience can fully understand what those mathematicians are doing.
EverGreen1231
Senior Member
Duh... that's obvious. The interesting thing is that we actually find them when there is no reason why they should be there at all.
ambush80
Senior Member
Certain crystals form in hexagonal clusters others form in sheets. It's based on the shape of the molecules that they're made of.
Trying to suggest that this indicates a "Creator" is equivalent to suggesting that certain crystals can alleviate abdominal pain whereas others are good for athlete's foot. It's just wishful thinking.
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EverGreen1231
Senior Member
I read a book some time ago called Emblems of Mind: Where music and Mathematics meet (or something like that). I've not read the book you mentioned but if I can work through my current reading list, I'll probably read it sometime next year.
The main crux of the argument in the video is the an argument that has been around ever since man could comprehend nature mathematically: Why does it follow these relations? The answer leading to the idea that the universe is composed of these relations, looking strangely like a fixed game; or, this math stuff is just something we made up in our own minds and says nothing of the organization, or lack-thereof, of the universe. Mathematicians and physicists tend toward the former, Engineers the later; laymen will choose based upon their beliefs, usually.
660griz
Senior Member
Like Jesus on toast and men in clouds. Yes. So interesting.
EverGreen1231
Senior Member
Why do they form in such shapes? Why do the charges of protons and electrons not vary? Shouldn't they? It would make sense if they did. Why do the fundamental forces behave as they do? What is energy?
The more I study and learn, the more I am convinced that this Universe is not a stochastic place. It has pattern and symmetry, and that on scales which we have yet to even begin to comprehend IMO. But, none of that matters because "they just happen to fall in place because they're shaped that way".
Madman
Senior Member
I missed the comparison of Crystalline structure and informational code.
That is not what is being discussed. the argument is language, code, must come from intelligence.
Accept it or don't, most believe it is a valid argument.
EverGreen1231
Senior Member
That's cute. Carry on, I'll disturb you no longer.
j_seph
Senior Member
StriperrHunterr
Senior Member
Why do they form in such shapes? Why do the charges of protons and electrons not vary? Shouldn't they? It would make sense if they did. Why do the fundamental forces behave as they do? What is energy?
The more I study and learn, the more I am convinced that this Universe is not a stochastic place. It has pattern and symmetry, and that on scales which we have yet to even begin to comprehend IMO. But, none of that matters because "they just happen to fall in place because they're shaped that way".
Why does the universe have to make sense?
ambush80
Senior Member
Why do they form in such shapes? Why do the charges of protons and electrons not vary? Shouldn't they? It would make sense if they did. Why do the fundamental forces behave as they do? What is energy?
The more I study and learn, the more I am convinced that this Universe is not a stochastic place. It has pattern and symmetry, and that on scales which we have yet to even begin to comprehend IMO. But, none of that matters because "they just happen to fall in place because they're shaped that way".
What you're really getting at at is "Why anything?"
Why not?
Actually Tegmark's book so far seems to lean towards "It's more likely for there to be something than not." (mathematically, of course). Then again, he's not getting his data from revelation......or is he?
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EverGreen1231
Senior Member
That's an over simplification, but, yes, essentially. As to your 'why not' question, you're smart enough to know that.
It doesn't have to, that's the point.
ambush80
Senior Member
Honestly, the math is making a strong argument to me that this universe is more likely to exist than not. Like I said, I don't completely understand it all but the parts I do understand lead in that direction.
If by "It doesn't have to make sense" includes a 6 day creation and a 6,000 year old Earth I would say that if the Biblical God exists, I agree with you. If the Biblical God exists, the apparent laws of the Universe are rendered moot since they can be altered or suspended at any time. If special relativity or even theoretical math could somehow point to a talking donkey I would consider your position more compelling. Unfortunately, since the Bible is the only reference material that makes claims about talking donkeys, I feel compelled to disregard it.
What's more interesting is that ALL the other major religions make their own specific claims about supernatural events that are unsupported by science. Perhaps you've been given a revelation as to the reasons for that. If you have, would you share?
EverGreen1231
Senior Member
Getting into Hawking's stuff? That's some serious theory (hypothesis, actually, but I digress).
Sure, but like I said, you already know: Science doesn't know everything, nor will it IMO.
You expect mathematics to tell you anything about a talking donkey? Maybe you should read that book of yours a little more slowly.
ambush80
Senior Member
Getting into Hawking's stuff? That's some serious theory (hypothesis, actually, but I digress).
Sure, but like I said, you already know: Science doesn't know everything, nor will it IMO.
You expect mathematics to tell you anything about a talking donkey? Maybe you should read that book of yours a little more slowly.
I know, it's funny, right?
But if a donkey talked then there should be an explanation and that explanation should be describable by math or some other science.
I mean, that's the whole point of apologetics, isn't it? Make a rational argument for, say, living in a fish for three days or resurrection.
Did Jesus' body not decay in the tomb? Did it decay and was restored? I should think that that kind of information would be useful in the here and now.
EverGreen1231
Senior Member
Find me a mathematical theory for evolution. All I've been presented has been descriptive evidence of fragments of fossils that have been constructed into entire creatures that just 'happen' to fit in some proposed timeline.
Why?
gordon 2
Senior Member
The medium is the message.
Gentlemen find and start your mediums.
Mine is: John 6:15 and the rest is all fractal geometry.
Gentlemen find and start your mediums.
Mine is: John 6:15 and the rest is all fractal geometry.
Well.. there's also the fact that we have observed speciation occur in laboratory conditions. The number of fields of science that have made observations that fall in line with exactly what evolutionary theory would predict is simply insurmountable for scientists. Interestingly the main folks that seem overly concerned about evolution are those whose belief system is threatened by the things it tells us about our world.. namely that it is MUCH older than 6000 years old, and that our ancestors were not human in the way that we think of ourselves now. It kind of throws a bone into the whole idea of us being magicked into existence in our present form.
