"My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?"

I once heard a Bible scholar say that in Jesus' day, it was common practice during worship for someone to recite the opening line of a Psalm, and the congregation would then join in and recite the remaining lines with him. Meaning that when Jesus' exclaimed "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?", he was actually signifying to those present that His atoning sacrifice was finished, because everyone knew the words of the prophecy in Psalms 22 that followed.

Has anyone here heard this, and if so, do you know of any references to it?

hawglips said:

I once heard a Bible scholar say that in Jesus' day, it was common practice during worship for someone to recite the opening line of a Psalm, and the congregation would then join in and recite the remaining lines with him. Meaning that when Jesus' exclaimed "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?", he was actually signifying to those present that His atoning sacrifice was finished, because everyone knew the words of the prophecy in Psalms 22 that followed.

Has anyone here heard this, and if so, do you know of any references to it?

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Interesting theory to add to the many. Strange text though, Jesus having a God. As Bart Erhman would say, those quotes that would be controversial are probably the real words.... because if they were made up, it would be non controversial in theology

Jesus was not quoting Psalms 22.

We are all forsaken , separated from God, as Psalms 22 says ,until the Crucifixion.

Jesus, as God, had never been separated from the Godhead. Yet he was , because of Sin.

The Creator became sin for us. Creation purpose is to redeem sinners.

The Father turned His back on His only begotten so as to not look upon sin.
2 Corinthians 5:21

21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

I am always pressed to this thing, to this understanding, to this and these confessions of Jesus the Christ:

I can do nothing by Myself; I judge only as I hear. And My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:

"Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Are there so called parentheses around these at any time?
In other words, at what point might Jesus say, this is now me (and only me) speaking/doing...apart from the Father...here...and here...and here?

The whole matter of "that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ" is for us so very deep, and also so very thrilling as to rightly keep us on the hunt, the seeking, asking, knocking that never grows old.

"How do you dwell in man, how can you fit, what does that look like, what is that experience?"

And never without answer.

marketgunner said:

Jesus was not quoting Psalms 22.

We are all forsaken , separated from God, as Psalms 22 says ,until the Crucifixion.

Jesus, as God, had never been separated from the Godhead. Yet he was , because of Sin.

The Creator became sin for us. Creation purpose is to redeem sinners.

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I see it that Jesus became sin for us because we know we would have crucified Him, cheering on the folk that orchestrated the deed. Jesus was sinful in the eyes of the ordinary believers of his day--and was put to death by them. In this way, now that we know Jesus was God, we know the interplay of all which is God's and that which is of the world in the spiritual realm and in life in general. But Jesus never was with sin, nor did He become sinful.

21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us*, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
(*Jesus was sin for us who were sinful and judge(d) him sinful. This is the foolishness of the cross.)

Jesus was with out sin or knew no sin, but for the sinner blind to the will of God, he was made to be or made to be perceived to be sinful ( sin for us)--which is why he was crucified. He was crucified for being a sinner in the eyes of those who were deceived by sinful natures or those who did not at all tarry with God. ( I ask all (if unknowing that Jesus was God) that he was "just" a man would you bat an eye to his death by the political authorities if it meant the security of your esteemed way of life? Would His death on the streets of Jerusalem register as anything of great importance?)

I suspect that many Christians today, not knowing as they do now the witness of the resurrection and the gift of the Holy Spirit, would have been of the orchestra playing for Jesus' death along with those that did or would have been indifferent to it -- as just the death or martyr of an other zealot of just another noisy messianic sect. ( Is there not a bigotry, a bigotry fostered by security or insecurity, in Christianity even today that some human lives are worth less than others?)

Jesus was made sinful to the world motivated by sin who judged him sinful and condemned Him to death. But Jesus was never sinful, nor did he ever take on anyone's sins on himself in that he Himself became sinful. He suffered for the world's sins. He bore them due God's great charity. This was God's plan and now we knowing this is what took place, ( largely due the resurrection and the gift of the Holy Spirit) we are party to the knowledge of what is heavenly and what is of the world.

"He himself bore our sins" in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness;..."

Jesus suffered for our sins so that pilgrims could stand or kneel at the foot of the cross, or at the alter, or at the foot of their beds and cry to know Him in his Kingdom. Jesus never became sin or became sinful for our behalf. He was whipped, tortured and killed because of man's sinful nature from which He was judged and yet He revived so that we might know Him as the Saint that was promised as to freeing, feeding and guiding His flock-- which was/is God's promise to the faithful and the promise of Himself faithful to man.

So no! God did not become sin. Jesus did not become sin in that he appropriated to himself the sins of the world. He took on the sins of the world, sin nature itself the great killer of life, revealing sin's depth and overcame with victory in order that we may partake of His nature-- once being blind to see, and deaf to hear, and dead to life in Him, born again to the relationship with God that man is supposed to have. It gives us hope and an example of how Jesus, and God's will can be the example for our lives.

So the Creator was never ever and He Himself did not become sin to us. But He became sin to us because the world-man- we judged Him sinful and the world was us and still is, a least, a smarting part of us.

no, God the Creator of all things, the judge that condemned us became Sin, (guilty) , took the punishment intended for us.

Judgement by man is worthless, God accepted the sacrifice to forgive ALL SIN ,

2Co 5:21

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Food for thought, bear in mind that many men have died for another mans life, however, Jesus's death was different because the firstborn son was offered up to redeem the remaining family. The 2nd, third did not have to be offered because the firstborn completed the redemption of the family. Jesus redeems us because he is the firstborn. If he were not the firstborn of God then we would have no redemption, no restoration of what was lost in the garden, no eternal life, no heavenly place, no walk with God. Jesus has secured that back again as the second Adam. So, yes it was because of our sin, on a personal level, but more on our sinful nature that we inherited from Eve. The sinful nature is driven by selfishness, envy and pride. Man tried for generations to overcome his nature. But as time has proven it can not be cleaned up or improved upon. It would only result in a morticians best work of a made up corpse.

One might have a hard time establishing that all men are sinners and fall short of the glory of God without it pointing to our nature. Reason I say this is an infant who dies, or ..... say even Paul, he would argue that he had lived a clean life, attempting to serve God before his Damascus road experience. It's the nature within us all, some worse than others, that can not inherit the kingdom of God. This is why it's hard to convince all that they need a savior. Some people don't recognize a need. Others see it clearly. That's why Paul was so unique, not as the chief of sinners as we would know it, but as one whom tried his best to serve God but realized that his work.... was just that. Whom realized that his good resume was not the gospel. So I say this thinking out loud, do I see Jesus's death on the cross as being directly for my sins past present and future, or do I see it corporately, for the entire family of God. ????? Something I will ponder

1gr8bldr said:

Food for thought, bear in mind that many men have died for another mans life, however, Jesus's death was different because the firstborn son was offered up to redeem the remaining family. The 2nd, third did not have to be offered because the firstborn completed the redemption of the family. Jesus redeems us because he is the firstborn. If he were not the firstborn of God then we would have no redemption, no restoration of what was lost in the garden, no eternal life, no heavenly place, no walk with God. Jesus has secured that back again as the second Adam. So, yes it was because of our sin, on a personal level, but more on our sinful nature that we inherited from Eve. The sinful nature is driven by selfishness, envy and pride. Man tried for generations to overcome his nature. But as time has proven it can not be cleaned up or improved upon. It would only result in a morticians best work of a made up corpse.

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He redeemed us because He was 100% God,
He share in His Death because He was 100% Human,

We do not inherit a sinful nature from our Fathers, We are responsible individually.

Eze 18:20

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

marketgunner said:

He redeemed us because He was 100% God,
He share in His Death because He was 100% Human,

We do not inherit a sinful nature from our Fathers, We are responsible individually.

Eze 18:20

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

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Did you really mean to say we don't inherit a sinful nature from our fathers???? Are you implying my literal father or as humans???? human nature???

God is eternal and can not die? Who then died for my sins? If Jesus is God? Yea I know the argument, the hypostatic union. Funny thing is though, Paul writes letters back to encourage the new churches and to answer any questions where they may not have grasped fully. Not once do we see him explaining the God/man, hypostatic union, God is three in one, triune, etc. Are we to assume that the extremely monotheistic Jews accepted that their "one" God is actually 3, accepted it hook line and sinker without any question, debate or even oposition to such from their peers? Instead we see questions about food sacrificed to idols, how to treat women, etc. ????? It's the missing context.

marketgunner said:

He redeemed us because He was 100% God,
He share in His Death because He was 100% Human,

We do not inherit a sinful nature from our Fathers, We are responsible individually.

Eze 18:20

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

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Nothing about the firstborn foundations from the OT. The NT does not stand alone. It's interpretations build from the OT , not contrary to it. Your view makes God put on a fake man suit and come down to earth pretending to be a man. I could go on and on, the Father is greater than I, I can do nothing apart from the Father, Jesus having a God, Confessions of you are the Christ, not you are God, etc, but it would be futile because you would then try to trump my verses with your verses overlooking then that you are essentially saying my verses are false.... thus a total breakdown of the discussion because the book we use as a standard becomes a pick and chose, and deny the other. I'm content that my views are contextural. And rather than argue your response, I will let you have the last words, free of my input or debate. Thanks for a thought provoking discussion.

God didn't die on the cross , but He was separated from God, which is the result of sin, as death is the separation of the living. His physical death was real as our death is.
We do not die spiritually when we die physically.

Exe 18. says you do not bear the iniquity of your father, you bear your own.

How can we argue?

I needed to add, there is a sin nature, we just did not get it from our fathers.

I do not need last word, I just believe obvious verses without Humanistic bias that elevates flesh over spirit.

marketgunner said:

God didn't die on the cross , but He was separated from God, which is the result of sin, as death is the separation of the living. His physical death was real as our death is.
We do not die spiritually when we die physically.

Exe 18. says you do not bear the iniquity of your father, you bear your own.

How can we argue?

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But you said "He redeemed us because He was 100% God,"
It's almost like you are saying it took the death of God to redeem our sins.

marketgunner said:

I needed to add, there is a sin nature, we just did not get it from our fathers.

I do not need last word, I just believe obvious verses without Humanistic bias that elevates flesh over spirit.

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Not directly but since there is a sin nature, and we are descendants of Adam?
Which means my Dad and his dad had a sin nature. True we are responsible for our own sins. I think since it is through genetics from Adam to my Dad, it's safe to say it is inherited.

no, Exe 18 says no.

We do both have sin nature but you did not get it from him according to the verses, You are responsible for your own iniquities.

I might wear the same style of hat as my father or son, but it does not mean I got it from them. We probably got the hats from the same place though.

We are spiritual beings foremost over fleshly ones,
Humanism suggest the flesh takes presidence over the spirit which is backward, according to scripture.


C

Artfuldodger said:

But you said "He redeemed us because He was 100% God,"
It's almost like you are saying it took the death of God to redeem our sins.

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Jesus as God paid the price, of separation, from the God Head.( Death is separation, ).
A Holy God cannot be in fellowship with sin.

That eternal fellowship was broken at the cross, never had been broken before. Remember Jesus was also in Heaven while He was on earth.

If He died without being 100% God, we would be still lost.
He would have been a created being,
If He was not 100% Human , we have no claim in His death nor blood

But being also a human that shares our flesh and blood we share in his death and thus salvation

Artfuldodger said:

But you said "He redeemed us because He was 100% God,"
It's almost like you are saying it took the death of God to redeem our sins.

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You ever been so broken...so broke down in grief you can't even muster the strength to be angry about anything?

Me, I go through my days...often...contending with things that seem to want to provoke, seem to demand an answer of sorts that may not be without some anger in regards to the absolute contradictions I see, things that seek to frustrate the grace of God...and there I must seek a grace to contend. Or manifestly fail. The things a man might find in the earth. I don't think I speak of things in experience foreign to the believer.

"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself"...as it is written. Yes, God in Christ...experiencing things. God, being accused of being evil, God in Christ accused of being the blasphemer, God in Christ...accused of being all that is false. In union they bore it, in union they accepted it, in union they uttered not a word against it. A plan. God having his perfect man...perfect toward Him, and perfect in finding only one thing in man...ignorance. No fault found of the creation did he utter.


Yes, I do kinda see God suffering Himself a death of sorts there, fully in the experience of all His Son was enduring.

Tell me...how would you "feel" if watching your son put to the test, He bore all to uphold your name as the merciful and gracious God? What would be happening to you as men, in all that was not of mercy, but in total contradiction to it...wrongly accused your son? Would there be anger? Would there be a wrath? But to "act" on those...would make the son who was upholding your name as merciful...appear a liar! Quite a place to be, no?


So, where does that all go? All the righteousness that is being contradicted, all the goodness and meekness that deserved answer in that righteousness...what happens to it?

We barely know what took place in Christ there. The things needing reconciliation...and how such reconciliation must take a toll. Yes, I do see God suffering as much "in the death of His son" that we cannot imagine it. And how the bearing of all that demanded a Holy and righteous answer...was indeed borne. And in who, and by whom. But this...is their total agreement. And this is whom into which we are called.

Yes...God was fully spent in a man. Do I believe there was a grief so deeply shared (have you ever been so lost in such "with" a loved one...you feel lost to any word of comfort to even share? A things so profoundly unsettling that it must simply have its course...?) Yes, man vented all his anger and frustration at the "way things appeared" to him, that not one insult was overlooked. Righteousness was so much more than "not seen"...but despised. Cruelly despised. Insults added to torment, derisions added to cruelest scourgings.

"The reproaches of those that reproached thee...fell upon me". The plan. The perfection...ordained.

Mercy would be made fully manifest...not only in word, but in person. And, personally shown.

Apart from the resurrection, we are clueless. That alone is the attestation of all that took place there, that man had indeed fully met God...and God was in all pleased with this meeting. In One man. This man we are called into.

What Christ "took" is in direct proportion to what He gives. As much condemnation that is outside of Him is for any who believe He didn't take it all. Some it seems, believe nothing of Him, that He in fact...bore nothing.

But for the believer, as much glory to be found in Him is all of gift to those...who simply believe "in Him". And as surely as Christ was known of the One in whom He abode, even now Christ knows His own.




And men will show their interest, and where their interest lies.

1gr8bldr said:

Nothing about the firstborn foundations from the OT. The NT does not stand alone. It's interpretations build from the OT , not contrary to it. Your view makes God put on a fake man suit and come down to earth pretending to be a man. I could go on and on, the Father is greater than I, I can do nothing apart from the Father, Jesus having a God, Confessions of you are the Christ, not you are God, etc, but it would be futile because you would then try to trump my verses with your verses overlooking then that you are essentially saying my verses are false.... thus a total breakdown of the discussion because the book we use as a standard becomes a pick and chose, and deny the other. I'm content that my views are contextural. And rather than argue your response, I will let you have the last words, free of my input or debate. Thanks for a thought provoking discussion.

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Jesus' Two Natures: God and Man

by Matt Slick
11/24/08

Jesus is the most important person who has ever lived since he is the Savior, God in human flesh. He is not half God and half man. He is fully divine and fully man. In other words, Jesus has two distinct natures: divine and human. Jesus is the Word who was God and was with God and was made flesh (John 1:1, 14). This means that in the single person of Jesus he has both a human and divine nature, God and man. The divine nature was not changed when the Word became flesh (John 1:1, 14). Instead, the Word was joined with humanity (Col. 2:9). Jesus' divine nature was not altered. Also, Jesus is not merely a man who "had God within Him," nor is he a man who "manifested the God principle." He is God in flesh, second person of the Trinity. "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word." (Heb. 1:3). Jesus' two natures are not "mixed together" (Eutychianism), nor are they combined into a new God-man nature (Monophysitism). They are separate yet act as a unit in the one person of Jesus. This is called the Hypostatic Union.

The following chart should help you see the two natures of Jesus "in action":
GOD MAN
He is worshiped (Matt. 2:2, 11; 14:33) He worshiped the Father (John 17)
He was called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8) He was called man (Mark 15:39; John 19:5)
He was called Son of God (Mark 1:1) He was called Son of Man (John 9:35-37)
He is prayed to (Acts 7:59) He prayed to the Father (John 17)
He is sinless (1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 4:15) He was tempted (Matt. 4:1)
He knows all things (John 21:17) He grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52)
He gives eternal life (John 10:28) He died (Rom. 5:8)
All the fullness of deity dwells in Him (Col. 2:9)

He has a body of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)
The Communicatio Idiomatum

A doctrine that is related to the Hypostatic Union is the communicatio idiomatum (Latin for "communication of properties"). This is the teaching that the attributes of both the divine and human natures are ascribed to the one person of Jesus. This means that the man Jesus could lay claim to the glory He had with the Father before the world was made (John 17:5), claim that He descended from heaven (John 3:13), and also claim omnipresence (Matt. 28:20). All of these are divine qualities that are laid claim to by Jesus; therefore, the attributes of the divine properties were claimed by the person of Jesus.

One of the most common errors that non-Christian cults make is not understanding the two natures of Christ. For example, the Jehovah's Witnesses focus on Jesus' humanity and ignore His divinity. They repeatedly quote verses dealing with Jesus as a man and try to set them against Scripture showing that Jesus is also divine. On the other hand, the Christian Scientists do the reverse. They focus on the Scriptures showing Jesus' divinity to the extent of denying His true humanity.

For a proper understanding of Jesus and, therefore, all other doctrines that relate to Him, His two natures must be properly understood and defined. Jesus is one person with two natures. This is why He would grow in wisdom and stature (Luke 2:52) and yet know all things (John 21:17). He is the Divine Word that became flesh (John 1:1, 14).

The Bible is about Jesus (John 5:39). The prophets prophesied about Him (Acts 10:43). The Father bore witness of Him (John 5:37; 8:18). The Holy Spirit bore witness of Him (John 15:26). The works Jesus did bore witness of Him (John 5:36; 10:25). The multitudes bore witness of Him (John 12:17). And, Jesus bore witness of Himself (John 14:6; 18:6).

Other verses to consider when examining His deity are John 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:6-8; and 2 Pet. 1:1.

1 Tim. 2:5 says, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Right now, there is a man in heaven on the throne of God. He is our advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1). He is our Savior (Titus 2:13). He is our Lord (Rom. 10:9-10). He is Jesus.

https://carm.org/jesus-two-natures