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Old 07-14-2017, 10:33 PM
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Default Abraham's salvation?

The only way is to believe Christ died for our sins. Abraham was promised the Seed.
Did he know who the Seed was?

Perhaps since if you know the Father, you know the Son and if you have seen the Son, you have seen the Father.

In that respect Abraham had faith in God. He had salvation even if he had to wait on the event in time of the Seed coming.

Isaiah 61:10
I am overwhelmed with joy in the LORD my God! For he has dressed me with the clothing of salvation and draped me in a robe of righteousness. I am like a bridegroom in his wedding suit or a bride with her jewels.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:40 PM
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Maybe Jesus being the only way is more in depth than we know.

People throughout time perhaps knew differently than through teaching. Maybe God's revelation of his Son presented differently in time before the Cross than after.

Maybe not. It might have always been that God must lead one to Jesus and one must know Jesus to know God.

Perhaps the timing of events aren't as important after all at ending divisions. Maybe everyone already knows who God is.

Maybe they have already had their iniquities forgiven.

Maybe we no longer have to teach. Perhaps we never did.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:56 PM
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John 8:56-58
56Your father Abraham was overjoyed to see My day. He saw it and was glad.” 57Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?” 58“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

When did Abraham see this day? Is this more of that "out of time" stuff or did he have to actually wait until the Cross?

John 8:51-52
Truly, truly, I tell you, if anyone keeps My word, he will never see” death. 52“Now we know that You have a demon!” declared the Jews. “Abraham died, and so did the prophets, yet You say that anyone who keeps Your word will never taste death.

Did Abraham really have to wait in "time" and actually experience death? Did he have to wait on the event of the Cross to experience it or did he transcend time at his physical death and experience his eternal spiritual life?
Seeing, learning, and experiencing Christ at the moment he died a physical death.

John 8:58
“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Perhaps Abraham saw Jesus even earlier than at his physical death. Maybe the day of Messiah “preexisted,” so to speak, in Abraham’s mind.
Was it by faith Abraham saw the Messiah’s coming in advance of its actual arrival in an out of time sort of way?

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Old 07-15-2017, 07:51 AM
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Hebrews 5:7 While Jesus was here on earth, he offered prayers and pleadings, with a loud cry and tears, to the one who could rescue him from death. And God heard his prayers because of his deep reverence for God. 8 Even though Jesus was God’s Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him. 10 And God designated him to be a High Priest in the order of Melchizedek.

How could Abraham had eternal life before eternal life had been made? It took Jesus living a sinless life, being persecuted, and making Himself a sacrifice, so He could be the author of eternal life.

Jesus became the source of eternal life through the death, burial, and resurrection.
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Old 07-15-2017, 08:31 AM
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Abraham was the man of faith. He believed God's promises as fact. OT saints were commended for having faith. Believing that God's word was as good as if it had already happened. "And the word became flesh" [became to pass]. Jesus's statement, "before Abraham was born, I am", was not a claim of pre existence in the literal, but pre existed "in word". Issac was called Abraham's first born son yet we know he was second to Ishmael. This is because God promised Issac first. This concept of pre existing "in word", and believing it as fact before existence is key to the OT
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Old 07-15-2017, 08:54 AM
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Abraham was the man of faith. He believed God's promises as fact. OT saints were commended for having faith. Believing that God's word was as good as if it had already happened. "And the word became flesh" [became to pass]. Jesus's statement, "before Abraham was born, I am", was not a claim of pre existence in the literal, but pre existed "in word". Issac was called Abraham's first born son yet we know he was second to Ishmael. This is because God promised Issac first. This concept of pre existing "in word", and believing it as fact before existence is key to the OT
Then the Lamb Slain from the foundation of the World is of this same concept? We'll call it the Word or mind of God.
Did this concept of preexistence give salvation even before Christ became the perfect High Priest at a future event in time?

Regardless of if Jesus pre exisited in Heaven as a spirit instead of just Word.
Even if he pre existed, he wasn't a High Priest yet. He wasn't a man yet. He hadn't died on the Cross for our sins yet.

Did people who believed by faith and/or grace have eternal life granted to them at the moment of their physical death? Granted eternal life is given to someone when they are converted but it doesn't show up as such until they die a physical death.

It just seems like if they had to wait until the Cross, then they didn't technically receive eternal life as they were dead within a part of it.
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Old 07-16-2017, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
John 8:56-58
56Your father Abraham was overjoyed to see My day. He saw it and was glad.” 57Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?” 58“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

When did Abraham see this day? Is this more of that "out of time" stuff or did he have to actually wait until the Cross?

John 8:51-52
Truly, truly, I tell you, if anyone keeps My word, he will never see” death. 52“Now we know that You have a demon!” declared the Jews. “Abraham died, and so did the prophets, yet You say that anyone who keeps Your word will never taste death.

Did Abraham really have to wait in "time" and actually experience death? Did he have to wait on the event of the Cross to experience it or did he transcend time at his physical death and experience his eternal spiritual life?
Seeing, learning, and experiencing Christ at the moment he died a physical death.

John 8:58
“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Perhaps Abraham saw Jesus even earlier than at his physical death. Maybe the day of Messiah “preexisted,” so to speak, in Abraham’s mind.
Was it by faith Abraham saw the Messiah’s coming in advance of its actual arrival in an out of time sort of way?
Or, to say it another way, "I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
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Old 07-16-2017, 09:43 AM
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Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you...

But "of what" is that ordination...it is said in previous verse:

but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot.

A precious brother used to be fond of reminding that growth in the Kingdom is precisely contrary to natural growth. In the natural, lambs grow up to be sheep, in the Kingdom...different.
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Old 07-16-2017, 11:17 AM
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1Peter 1: This letter is from Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ.

I am writing to God’s chosen people who are living as foreigners in the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. 2 God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

These foreigners in the land of Gentiles are Diaspora. Peter is writing to the 10 lost tribes of Israel.

May God give you more and more grace and peace.

3 All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is by his great mercy that we have been born again, because God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. Now we live with great expectation, 4 and we have a priceless inheritance—an inheritance that is kept in heaven for you, pure and undefiled, beyond the reach of change and decay. 5 And through your faith, God is protecting you by his power until you receive this salvation, which is ready to be revealed on the last day for all to see.

Did you catch that? They had been born again.. They had an inheritance waiting on them. They had a salvation that was about to be revealed to them... In the last day.. Which they were on the doorstep of the last day.

6 So be truly glad. There is wonderful joy ahead, even though you must endure many trials for a little while. 7 These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold—though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world.

8 You love him even though you have never seen him. Though you do not see him now, you trust him; and you rejoice with a glorious, inexpressible joy. 9 The reward for trusting him will be the salvation of your souls.

10 This salvation was something even the prophets wanted to know more about when they prophesied about this gracious salvation prepared for you. 11 They wondered what time or situation the Spirit of Christ within them was talking about when he told them in advance about Christ’s suffering and his great glory afterward.

12 They were told that their messages were not for themselves, but for you. And now this Good News has been announced to you by those who preached in the power of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. It is all so wonderful that even the angels are eagerly watching these things happen. So this salvation that was about to be revealed was not for the prophets that foretold of it.. They didn't even understand it, but it was for those first century Christians, and it was about to come, even the angels were on the edge of their seats looking on in eager anticipation
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Old 07-16-2017, 12:45 PM
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Hebrews 5:7 While Jesus was here on earth, he offered prayers and pleadings, with a loud cry and tears, to the one who could rescue him from death. And God heard his prayers because of his deep reverence for God. 8 Even though Jesus was God’s Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him. 10 And God designated him to be a High Priest in the order of Melchizedek.

How could Abraham had eternal life before eternal life had been made? It took Jesus living a sinless life, being persecuted, and making Himself a sacrifice, so He could be the author of eternal life.

Jesus became the source of eternal life through the death, burial, and resurrection.
Jesus, the word, for His role as Messiah is not the source of eternal life. Jesus was before his role as Messiah and the source of eternal life then also... Jesus becomes the source of eternal life, post the cross, for those who knowing only idols could not know the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. In other words Jesus is the source of eternal life for sinners-- the hopelessly lost. Jesus is what Paul needed, for example, but also what the Greeks and the Romans needed. Paul's righteousness was false before he met Jesus and the Greeks and the Romans well they had their own gods--many knowing nothing of eternal life.
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Old 07-16-2017, 12:49 PM
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Then the Lamb Slain from the foundation of the World is of this same concept? We'll call it the Word or mind of God.
Did this concept of preexistence give salvation even before Christ became the perfect High Priest at a future event in time?

Regardless of if Jesus pre exisited in Heaven as a spirit instead of just Word.
Even if he pre existed, he wasn't a High Priest yet. He wasn't a man yet. He hadn't died on the Cross for our sins yet.

Did people who believed by faith and/or grace have eternal life granted to them at the moment of their physical death? Granted eternal life is given to someone when they are converted but it doesn't show up as such until they die a physical death.

It just seems like if they had to wait until the Cross, then they didn't technically receive eternal life as they were dead within a part of it.
Art, just check the references to eternal life in the Old Testament.
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Old 07-16-2017, 01:01 PM
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It is no secret what God can do, what He done for others, He'll do for.... sinners?.



PS. The guy in the white shirt with the green yellow palm branch decal... don't he look like he could fire a right jab with purchase and without telegraph! If he's right handed, I can only wonder what power is in it.
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Old 07-16-2017, 04:54 PM
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Jesus, the word, for His role as Messiah is not the source of eternal life. Jesus was before his role as Messiah and the source of eternal life then also... Jesus becomes the source of eternal life, post the cross, for those who knowing only idols could not know the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. In other words Jesus is the source of eternal life for sinners-- the hopelessly lost. Jesus is what Paul needed, for example, but also what the Greeks and the Romans needed. Paul's righteousness was false before he met Jesus and the Greeks and the Romans well they had their own gods--many knowing nothing of eternal life.
Scripture says different. It says Jesus, God's Son was qualified through His sufferings, and only after that.. Not before.. Became the source of Salvation to all those that obeyed Him... Not just sinners.

"8 Even though Jesus was God’s Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him."


Remember at the transfiguration the voice in the cloud said, " Listen to Him"
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Old 07-16-2017, 06:34 PM
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Scripture says different. It says Jesus, God's Son was qualified through His sufferings, and only after that.. Not before.. Became the source of Salvation to all those that obeyed Him... Not just sinners.

"8 Even though Jesus was God’s Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him."


Remember at the transfiguration the voice in the cloud said, " Listen to Him"
It does not say He was qualified due suffering, it says he learned obedience from what he suffered. I agree that it qualified him as the perfect High Priest and that he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him.

Jude 1:25

All glory to him who alone is God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord. All glory, majesty, power, and authority are his before all time, and in the present, and beyond all time! Amen.


If you must agree with scripture, why not agree with all of it?
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Old 07-16-2017, 08:10 PM
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It does not say He was qualified due suffering, it says he learned obedience from what he suffered. I agree that it qualified him as the perfect High Priest and that he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him.

Jude 1:25

All glory to him who alone is God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord. All glory, majesty, power, and authority are his before all time, and in the present, and beyond all time! Amen.


If you must agree with scripture, why not agree with all of it?
I do.. Jude doesn't contradict that eternal life was made possible only after His sufferings on the Cross.
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Old 07-16-2017, 09:47 PM
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I do.. Jude doesn't contradict that eternal life was made possible only after His sufferings on the Cross.
I don't think that it does either. Jude is saying that God the Father deserves the glory for being our saviour through Jesus.
All glory, majesty, power, and authority are his before all time, and in the present, and beyond all time! Amen.

Jesus may well have been eternal but this verse isn't saying that since Jesus is God, then to believe in God is to believe in Jesus. It doesn't make what Jesus did on the Cross supersede the cross by saying that Jesus is God.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
25. To the only … God our Saviour—The oldest manuscripts add, "through Jesus Christ our Lord." The transcribers, fancying that "Saviour" applied to Christ alone, omitted the words. The sense is, To the only God (the Father) who is our Saviour through (that is, by the mediation of) Jesus Christ our Lord.

Even if Jesus is God and eternal, it still took "through Jesus" as a mediator.
You can't take the mission/plan of Jesus out of time as if he didn't do anything just because he existed with God the Father as the Word.. Otherwise he would not have needed to come to the earth and die on a cross to do what he did.
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Old 07-17-2017, 06:23 AM
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Grace is the manifestation of what is already there to a thing ready in contradiction of it.

Grace may be seen in the God whose word alone is final, willing to repeat Himself.
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Old 07-17-2017, 07:54 AM
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Grace is the manifestation of what is already there to a thing ready in contradiction of it.

Grace may be seen in the God whose word alone is final, willing to repeat Himself.
Truth, brother.
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Old 07-17-2017, 07:59 AM
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I do.. Jude doesn't contradict that eternal life was made possible only after His sufferings on the Cross.
Faith goes ahead to lay hold on salvation.

It is not just mere hope of it, but rather the substance of it. That thing that is the concrete foundation (sub-stance) of it.

Abraham had this substance.
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Old 07-17-2017, 08:27 AM
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Faith goes ahead to lay hold on salvation.

It is not just mere hope of it, but rather the substance of it. That thing that is the concrete foundation (sub-stance) of it.

Abraham had this substance.
Great! Then Abraham could be granted eternal life after Jesus was qualified by the Father as the source of eternal salvation.

Until then, he rested in Sheol with the hope that the Messiah would come and the Messiah's voice would raise him from the death he was resting in, to grant him eternal life. Hear Him!.
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Old 07-17-2017, 09:03 AM
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Great! Then Abraham could be granted eternal life after Jesus was qualified by the Father as the source of eternal salvation.

Until then, he rested in Sheol with the hope that the Messiah would come and the Messiah's voice would raise him from the death he was resting in, to grant him eternal life. Hear Him!.
You're not understanding me. I'm saying Abraham had it while he lived, by faith. He had eternal life dwelling in him while he walked on this earth, through faith. Faith can do that, and it does. It hasn't changed since Abel had it even to today when you and I have it. It's the same faith brother.
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Old 07-17-2017, 09:36 AM
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You're not understanding me. I'm saying Abraham had it while he lived, by faith. He had eternal life dwelling in him while he walked on this earth, through faith. Faith can do that, and it does. It hasn't changed since Abel had it even to today when you and I have it. It's the same faith brother.
I'm understanding you. I just don't know where you are getting that idea since it is contrary to all the scriptures we have looked at.

Maybe you can explain the nature of eternal life in a dead man?
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Old 07-17-2017, 10:01 AM
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Hebrews 5:7 While Jesus was here on earth, he offered prayers and pleadings, with a loud cry and tears, to the one who could rescue him from death. And God heard his prayers because of his deep reverence for God. 8 Even though Jesus was God’s Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him. 10 And God designated him to be a High Priest in the order of Melchizedek.

How could Abraham had eternal life before eternal life had been made? It took Jesus living a sinless life, being persecuted, and making Himself a sacrifice, so He could be the author of eternal life.

Jesus became the source of eternal life through the death, burial, and resurrection.
Which bible are you quoting? Sorry but KJV just seems a little more powerful

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
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Old 07-17-2017, 10:24 AM
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Which bible are you quoting? Sorry but KJV just seems a little more powerful

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Its the Holy Bible, I think I copied and pasted from the NLT version because it's easier for some to understand. Either way, it translates the same.

I like the KJV also, used with concordance... But I don't think we're suppose to discuss our opinions of that topic here, so that's all I'll say about that. :-)
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Last edited by hobbs27; 07-17-2017 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 07-17-2017, 10:42 AM
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I'm understanding you. I just don't know where you are getting that idea since it is contrary to all the scriptures we have looked at.

Maybe you can explain the nature of eternal life in a dead man?
I sure can. It's called quickening. Abraham was quickened (Rom.4:17).
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