ASA Tie break using bonus rings???

Am I the only one who doesnt understand why ASA and all other clubs and organizations use the higher number of bonus rings to break a tie?

I know this sounds backwards (this is the way my mind thinks) BUT If "shooter 1" Shoots *** with 20 bonus rings and "shooter 2" shoots *** with 18 bonus rings, why wouldnt "shooter 2" finish in the higher position?

My theory, "shooter 2" either:

1- dropped less points to maintain the same score as shooter 1

2- shot more 14's to get to the same score as shooter 1

Given this, wouldnt shooter 2 (technically speaking) have shot better than shooter 1?

This has happend to me a few times, including this past weekend in AUG. I think everytime it has happend I come out in the lower position because I hit less bonus rings.

Im by no means whining about what happened because I should have shot better so that this wouldnt have been an issue. Just posting up some food for thought is all.

Lets hear what you think!

I understand perfectly what your talking about.

Just this past weekend I got knocked out of third place in the Young Adult class because that guy had 16 bonus rings and I only had 15. So I understand why they do it but that doesn't mean I like it.

Yep

I have thought like this for a few years now, Your example is right on.

3-D is supposed to be accolade to Hunting...would you aim in the spot the 14 is on for shooting at an animal?

I say make the 14 inside the 12. That or do away with it entirely.

this has been discussed for as long as there have been 12 rings. it's definitely not fair, BUT it gives someone a way to come back or get deeper in, lol!! it hurts when you're on the receiving end, but next week, you'll be dishing it out. over the long run, it balances out. even target archery is going that way...they're starting to give a point for a baby x in a vegas round. it forces you to go for the riskier shot in 3d...and if you don't shoot for them, most of the time you won't win.

ScarletArrows said:

3-D is supposed to be accolade to Hunting...would you aim in the spot the 14 is on for shooting at an animal?

I say make the 14 inside the 12. That or do away with it entirely.

Click to expand...

Youre mssing the point slightly. I wasnt trying to bring up the debate over "14's or no 14's". My point is just as i stated above. I think the method of breaking a tie is flawed by using who hit the most bonus rings ... Well its all up there just read it again ;-) haha

KMckie786 said:

Am I the only one who doesnt understand why ASA and all other clubs and organizations use the higher number of bonus rings to break a tie?

I know this sounds backwards (this is the way my mind thinks) BUT If "shooter 1" Shoots *** with 20 bonus rings and "shooter 2" shoots *** with 18 bonus rings, why wouldnt "shooter 2" finish in the higher position?

My theory, "shooter 2" either:

1- dropped less points to maintain the same score as shooter 1

2- shot more 14's to get to the same score as shooter 1

Given this, wouldnt shooter 2 (technically speaking) have shot better than shooter 1?

This has happend to me a few times, including this past weekend in AUG. I think everytime it has happend I come out in the lower position because I hit less bonus rings.

Im by no means whining about what happened because I should have shot better so that this wouldnt have been an issue. Just posting up some food for thought is all.

Lets hear what you think!

Click to expand...

I understand and agree. My wife even asked me the same question not too long ago.

Here is a scenario for you. If a person hits 6 twelves and 3 fourteens and you hit 12 twelves. The scores would be equal but who shot better?

There is no best way. It is what it is.

Just shoot the highest score and win.

Or shoot like me and it doesnt matter!

HAHA!!

Chuck in that case i would think you would have to specify how many 12's and 14's individually were hit on the card, and of course, the shooter with higher # of 14's would take higher position.

It just doesnt make since to break a tie with higher bonus rings when in all cases the shooter with the most obviously dropped the most points or didnt shoot at 14's. Also, if it is dead locked if they cant break it with a final arrow they go to the first dropped point.

So the first method rewards dropped points, while if deadlocked they reward the one who didnt drop a point first.

I dont know, it just seems a little messed up if you really break it down and think about how they reward dropped points on one hand but then on the other they dont.

I've thought the same thing for years.
To me, it seems the twelve should be center like IBO and the 14 a smaller circle inside the twelve. Then use them to break ties.

I have always thought the same thing. If you shoot a certain score by shooting ten 12s and I shoot the same score by shooting twelve twelves, you shot a cleaner round than I did. I think you should win.

KMckie786 said:

Youre mssing the point slightly. I wasnt trying to bring up the debate over "14's or no 14's". My point is just as i stated above. I think the method of breaking a tie is flawed by using who hit the most bonus rings ... Well its all up there just read it again ;-) haha

Click to expand...

Didn't miss the point, I under-explained. If the game itself is flawed...

Guy whom shoots the most 14's still had to judge that yardage and make the shot. His score comes from the fact that those rings are off in spaces on the target that punish you for being off a yard or loosing your point of aim. If you shot 20, 14's then you deserve to win in a tie against a guy whom shot 18, 14's...that is one tiny and evil spot. BUT you should also count 12's in those bonus rings amount too imo...bet ya you see a differance in whom hit the most "bonus" rings then.
If you want it to be a true bonus ring put it inside the 12...then your really gonna see whom was dead on with their aim and the yardage guess.

Whoever has the most 8's wins

I agree with the thinking here but I think the higher 12 count rule goes way back to when other orgs only had a 10 ring. The reasoning in my opinion is to reward the shooter that goes for the 12 since that is the ultimate goal and the signature of the ASA. 12 plus 280 equals 3D.... Remember those stickers?

14 ring.... If Deer walks directly under your stand and you shoot at it as it walks away.... Where would you aim? 14 ring

p&y finally said:

Whoever has the most 8's wins

Click to expand...

That would be me!!!!!

All of this sounds good and is technically correct but you know the rules before you shoot so most people are aiming at the 12 ring when they are shooting because that is the name of the game. Doing away with the 12 will only make you aim center 10

I have always thought the same way. The 14 debate will be over soon, it is my belief that 14's are going away after this season. That by the way is fine. The best shooters will still win. You will find that the extra high scores will come down and some of the really low scores will come up. However the best shooters will still win.

I dont care if the 14 comes, stays or go's. If you can hit a 12 you can hit a 14 it just depends on who has the balls to shoot at em. The 14 is a riskier shot therefore should be rewarded with more points.

You think people hate 14's now; put them in the center of the 12's like some have mentioned and watch the scores soar! That concept is a little counter intuitive.

Ok lets get back on the tie break topic. I really didnt want this to turn into a "14" debate.

I agree the 14 should be irrelevant, and I assume the bonus ring concept was started before the 14 was around. I also agree putting the 14 inside the 12 will just increase the "luck" factor.

However, I believe that the logic behind using the bonus ring is still the "risk/reward" factor. For example, someone can shoot 208 by aiming center 10 all day, and catch four lucky 12s, or they can shoot 208 by aiming at the much smaller 12 on every shot, hitting let's say 9 of them, but also falling just short or outside (or getting blocked out by another arrow) for five 8s. Under that logic, using the bonus rings rewards the shooter taking the greater risk, and, theoretically, being more precise on 9 out of 20 shots. Anyone can luck into a few 12s on any given day aiming at center 10(especially when both are in play), but chances are the guy aiming at the 12s, if he is precise in his shooting (and correct guessing on the yardage in the unknown class) will get more 12s than the "lucky guy."

I am not saying that logic is correct, or not without flaws, but that is my assumption of why it was originally chosen as the tiebreaker.

Using the first dropped point is not without potential problems either. For our local shoots, most everyone starts on target 1, but sometimes there is a backup and you skip the first few, and like has occurrred at ASAs many times, I have had the scorekeepers start marking the cards at Target 1, even though we were starting on Target 7, 12, 18, whatever. So, for example if your scorekeeper did that, and you hit an 8 on your first target (assume #7) for whatever reason (extra long, you shot last and got bumped out, etc.), but got a 12 or 14 on the real #1, while your opponant's scorekeeper correctly put scores in the right boxes, and he got a 10 on #1, your opponent ends up winning the tie-break on dropped arrow. I had a guy in my group at one of the ASA's last year complaining that this had happened to him.