Converting the dying

Artfuldodger · Dec 9, 2017

Israel said:
What is christianity?

In a word, it's the Word. I can't quit sinning so I needed someone to wipe away my sins. To wipe my slate clean.
I tried to quit sinning and save myself, but it just never seem to work out for me. Then Jesus found me and told me he died for my sins.
It was like a load was lifted from my shoulders. A yoke was removed from my neck.

By many other men, I'm not considered a Christian because I don't believe in the Trinity exactly as they do. I also don't believe in eternal punishment by fire either.

WaltL1 · Dec 9, 2017

Israel said:
What is christianity?

A monotheistic religion.

Israel · Dec 10, 2017

The broadness of range in those two answers says quite a bit. Thank you.

Israel · Dec 10, 2017

bullethead said:
Are you saying that your Son forgetting to take out the trash and all of Mankind being held accountable for a guy eating a piece of fruit (not to mention the millions upon millions of deaths due to religious beliefs) is the same?

I think difference in the repercussions of each may be a little greater than you are able to fathom.

I see the rightness in what you speak. Especially regarding repercussions. What may appear a small thing, may even be proposed as a seemingly small thing contains in it a world of woe, literally.

But in that scene I see something with which all men contend...and am inclined to believe would agree to if openly and thoroughly examined.

WaltL1 · Dec 10, 2017

Israel said:
The broadness of range in those two answers says quite a bit. Thank you.

Probably a perfect representation of believer vs. nonbeliever, emotional attachment vs. nonemotional attachment.

Israel · Dec 10, 2017

WaltL1 said:
Probably a perfect representation of believer vs. nonbeliever, emotional attachment vs. nonemotional attachment.

There might be little less a range, but not much, amongst those who identify in that title.

atlashunter · Dec 11, 2017

Spotlite said:
I’m just saying that I’ve been a Christian all of my life and the hatred and other attributes that you have applied to Christianity.......I’ve never witnessed nor do I even recall anyone that has witnessed them. If you’re basing your opinions on things like the wicked being destroyed, etc., the reality is the sugar coated pill comes into play when one feels that everything is just a rose garden and everyone goes to heaven.

I realize that you don’t believe in a heaven so I would expect you to disagree with the Bible in its entirety, but a true Christian does not have any hatred toward you or anyone else, they will be full of compassion for you and will actually be praying for you.

Who said anything about hatred? I don't believe I did. Condemnation perhaps but if you think the point is condemnation by Christians you miss the point. The condemnation is already there in scripture. There is no point to salvation if there is nothing to be saved from. And the Christian bible makes clear in explicit terms what it claims to be saving people from.

Matthew 13

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 21:8

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

If anything it's the Westboro Baptist types that are being more honest about the Christian religion. Their motive may be hate and their delivery may be harsh but the message contained in the core doctrine of Christianity remains the same. No veil of being a peaceful and loving Christian can cover up the nastiness found in these scriptures.

WaltL1 · Dec 11, 2017

atlashunter said:
Who said anything about hatred? I don't believe I did. Condemnation perhaps but if you think the point is condemnation by Christians you miss the point. The condemnation is already there in scripture. There is no point to salvation if there is nothing to be saved from. And the Christian bible makes clear in explicit terms what it claims to be saving people from.

Matthew 13

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 21:8

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

If anything it's the Westboro Baptist types that are being more honest about the Christian religion. Their motive may be hate and their delivery may be harsh but the message contained in the core doctrine of Christianity remains the same. No veil of being a peaceful and loving Christian can cover up the nastiness found in these scriptures.

Yep.
The average Christian is definitely caught between a rock and a hard place.
While I can appreciate those who "soften" the whole thing, at the same time that is exactly what they are doing. Softening the whole thing.

Spotlite · Dec 11, 2017

atlashunter said:
Who said anything about hatred? I don't believe I did. Condemnation perhaps but if you think the point is condemnation by Christians you miss the point. The condemnation is already there in scripture. There is no point to salvation if there is nothing to be saved from. And the Christian bible makes clear in explicit terms what it claims to be saving people from.

Matthew 13

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 21:8

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

If anything it's the Westboro Baptist types that are being more honest about the Christian religion. Their motive may be hate and their delivery may be harsh but the message contained in the core doctrine of Christianity remains the same. No veil of being a peaceful and loving Christian can cover up the nastiness found in these scriptures.

Ok I was confused on the hatred issue, may have been someone else’s post. I see your point, but the wicked will be destroyed in the end. And to your point about west boro, their actions are uncalled for.

NCHillbilly · Dec 11, 2017

Spotlite said:
Ok I was confused on the hatred issue, may have been someone else’s post. I see your point, but the wicked will be destroyed in the end. And to your point about west boro, their actions are uncalled for.

The issue I have is that not only are the wicked destroyed, but the good and just and kind are tortured for eternity also, if they never accepted Jesus. He!! is the default position, not the punishment for wickedness.

NE GA Pappy · Dec 11, 2017

NCHillbilly said:
The issue I have is that not only are the wicked destroyed, but the good and just and kind are tortured for eternity also, if they never accepted Jesus. He!! is the default position, not the punishment for wickedness.

don't confuse the reason for spending eternity in one place or the other. It isn't because you are good you get to go to heaven, or that you were bad, so hades is your destination. Your behavior is not the deciding issue.

the deciding issue is whether or not you accepted that Jesus is the only way to heaven, and repented of your wrongdoing.

What some people confuse is the 'he wasn't a bad person, I have known a lot worse' spending eternity in hades.

Righteousness and sin are like oil and water. They won't mix. You can put them together in a bottle and shake them for a year, and when you put the bottle down, the oil will float to the top. So it is with sin/righteousness. It doesn't matter if you were a 'good' sinner or a 'despicable' sinner. Sin and God won't go together, and He will not allow sin to enter heaven. Not even a little bit. Not a drop.

The only way to rid yourself of sin is through Jesus Christ.

OK... go ahead with your poking and prodding about my answer. It won't hurt me a bit, but remember, I wasn't the one who made the rules, and neither were you. If you don't like the rules, take it up with the One who made everything.

j_seph · Dec 11, 2017

NCHillbilly said:
The issue I have is that not only are the wicked destroyed, but the good and just and kind are tortured for eternity also, if they never accepted Jesus. He!! is the default position, not the punishment for wickedness.

If that is the issue you have then why not seek him? Humble yourself to seek him, not saying directly at you but if one is always trying to prove the nonexistence then how can they ever humble their self to seek him?

atlashunter · Dec 11, 2017

NCHillbilly said:
The issue I have is that not only are the wicked destroyed, but the good and just and kind are tortured for eternity also, if they never accepted Jesus. He!! is the default position, not the punishment for wickedness.

^This. You can be a much better person than any christian that ever lived and still fall into the "wicked" camp for being faithless. This is what passes for morality in the christian bible and it is core to the message. Hence post #263. And the presumption that anyone can be let alone everyone by default is wicked enough to warrant being burned for an eternity is questionable to say the least.

atlashunter · Dec 11, 2017

j_seph said:
If that is the issue you have then why not seek him? Humble yourself to seek him, not saying directly at you but if one is always trying to prove the nonexistence then how can they ever humble their self to seek him?

Why not question the premise which is dubious at best? A righteous god and the god of the bible are two different gods. Regardless of which one you worship the christian religion should be rejected outright.

WaltL1 · Dec 11, 2017

j_seph said:
If that is the issue you have then why not seek him? Humble yourself to seek him, not saying directly at you but if one is always trying to prove the nonexistence then how can they ever humble their self to seek him?

One doesn't have to prove nonexistence.
If something can't be proven to in fact exist... well it doesn't until it can.
You are called a believer for a reason.
You are required to have faith for a reason.

Name something that in fact exists.
Do you have to believe it exists?
Do you have to have faith it exists?
Does something that in fact exists cease to exist if you don't believe it does or don't have faith it does?

Its really odd how you guys cling to this "prove something doesn't exist" nonsense. :huh:

bullethead · Dec 11, 2017

NE GA Pappy said:
don't confuse the reason for spending eternity in one place or the other. It isn't because you are good you get to go to heaven, or that you were bad, so hades is your destination. Your behavior is not the deciding issue.

the deciding issue is whether or not you accepted that Jesus is the only way to heaven, and repented of your wrongdoing.

What some people confuse is the 'he wasn't a bad person, I have known a lot worse' spending eternity in hades.

Righteousness and sin are like oil and water. They won't mix. You can put them together in a bottle and shake them for a year, and when you put the bottle down, the oil will float to the top. So it is with sin/righteousness. It doesn't matter if you were a 'good' sinner or a 'despicable' sinner. Sin and God won't go together, and He will not allow sin to enter heaven. Not even a little bit. Not a drop.

The only way to rid yourself of sin is through Jesus Christ.

OK... go ahead with your poking and prodding about my answer. It won't hurt me a bit, but remember, I wasn't the one who made the rules, and neither were you. If you don't like the rules, take it up with the One who made everything.

"One" is a no-show nowhere to be found.
Things that do not exist cannot make rules.
On the other hand, a man made book is full of rules.

bullethead · Dec 11, 2017

j_seph said:
If that is the issue you have then why not seek him? Humble yourself to seek him, not saying directly at you but if one is always trying to prove the nonexistence then how can they ever humble their self to seek him?

I did and another god showed up.

Spotlite · Dec 11, 2017

NCHillbilly said:
The issue I have is that not only are the wicked destroyed, but the good and just and kind are tortured for eternity also, if they never accepted Jesus. He!! is the default position, not the punishment for wickedness.

Valid point if it was just about who’s good or bad. There’s more to not accepting Jesus than simply not accepting.

Spotlite · Dec 11, 2017

bullethead said:
"One" is a no-show nowhere to be found.
Things that do not exist cannot make rules.
On the other hand, a man made book is full of rules.

We will see one day :bounce:

Spotlite · Dec 11, 2017

atlashunter said:
And the presumption that anyone can be let alone everyone by default is wicked enough to warrant being burned for an eternity is questionable to say the least.

For arguments sake, if I’m wrong, I pray to God that you’re right

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