SINNER or SAVED BY GRACE ?

Just reading in Romans and thought this would be helpful to the thread.
Romans 7: 1 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

hobbs27 said:

Just reading in Romans and thought this would be helpful to the thread.
Romans 7: 1 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

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Thank goodness through Jesus that the sins committed by our Old Self aren't held against us by God.
Yet we are to "throw off" or "put off" our Old Self. We now have the Freedom but we still need to fight the Old Self.
He appears to be quite the warrior, how does the Bible tell us to fight him? Even Paul was aware of the struggle. We now have the Holy Spirit helping us overcome this "Old Man."
Is he dead to the point we can forget him? Are we instructed to try and do anything with him? I read verses telling us to "put him off" but are there verses telling us how?

I guess our mind is in our brain so it's the part of our Old Flesh that still wants to sin. Our New Self is a spirit that has a new mind or at least can be used to guide our old mind with the help of the Holy Spirit. Maybe we can transfer part of our mind our spirit.

Ephesians 4:23
Instead, let the Spirit renew your thoughts and attitudes.

or;

And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

And be renewed in the spirit of your mind. Or by the Spirit that is in your mind; that is, by the Holy Spirit; who is in the saints,


I don't know how the following verse fits in.
Ezekiel 36:26
And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart.

EverGreen1231 said:

The scriptures say there is no way to loose your salvation.

You said "if you sin you are a sinner." I sin, though I have been washed; we all do. We don't have to, mind you, since we're no longer under the bondage, as we have been freed by grace; fortunately, God's grace is not made void in our weakness, but his strength is made perfect within it.

I still sin, despite my best efforts; as sin, at times, easily besets me. Despite this I am, and always will be, redeemed. Since I still sin, I'm still a sinner. (again, your words, not mine) As is clear in the scriptures, these sins do not remove my salvation, nor do they make it to be void. Therefore, I am a sinner saved by grace.

Having said all that, I don't like to use that term except among people who understand what I'm saying. I prefer to use the biblical term of "the redeemed."

I also don't like to spot pick verses too much, as there are few places where things have no context by which must be presented in order for understanding to be proper. But, if you read Romans (paying close attention to chapter 7) you'll see what I mean. Reading also 1 John.

I promise you, I don't come up with this stuff out of left field; this is only after extensive reading and study. This is not a topic to be taken lightly; but with intelligence, and tact, and no small amount of humility. (I speak to myself)

Until the old man is removed, we're all still sinners. Some have repented, others haven't. What separates? Faith.

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I NEVER SAID "if you sin you are a sinner." I don't know where you got that from?

just because you may sin does not mean you are a sinner.

Now let me show you why.

I asked the lord about this one time and he told me in my
Spirit.

he said you do electrical work some times but you are not an electrician,

you do plumbing work sometimes but you are not a plumber.

you do wood workin some times but you are not a carpenter.

in the same way you may sin sometimes but that does not make you a sinner. you are a saint that sins some times.

clayservant said:

A sinner is someone that practices Sin.

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Do I misunderstand?

clayservant said:

I NEVER SAID "if you sin you are a sinner." I don't know where you got that from?

just because you may sin does not mean you are a sinner.

Now let me show you why.

I asked the lord about this one time and he told me in my
Spirit.

he said you do electrical work some times but you are not an electrician,

you do plumbing work sometimes but you are not a plumber.

you do wood workin some times but you are not a carpenter.

in the same way you may sin sometimes but that does not make you a sinner. you are a saint that sins some times.

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Among men it behooves me to appear a certain way.
Before God, I have faith I appear as a son.
Among men, what I am among them is no pretense, it is the truth, I am the chiefest of sinners.
Before God I delight that this is what he has come to save.
And just as men are not reluctant to remind me that I am what I am among them, someone else is not at all ashamed to remind me how I appear before him.
This is not my doing, this is not my contrivance, this was not my will to exchange the good opinion of man for the opinion of this "other".
Of course, the good opinion of man includes the good opinion of the man writing this.
I am content to abandon that good opinion for His.
He is never wrong.
And I am not ashamed any longer of his rightness.
gods have been brought down, to see another.

"A sinner is someone that practices Sin."

I believe the mistake some people make is they somehow see a difference from committing one sin a day than 28 sins a day. Practice being the key word.
I believe the mistake some people make is seeing a difference between accidental sin and sinning on purpose.

The above in regards to salvation. It's hard for some Christians to believe Jesus died for our sins. They don't understand that we are adopted sons of God and heirs to the Kingdom.

Artfuldodger said:

"A sinner is someone that practices Sin."

I believe the mistake some people make is they somehow see a difference from committing one sin a day than 28 sins a day. Practice being the key word.
I believe the mistake some people make is seeing a difference between accidental sin and sinning on purpose.

The above in regards to salvation. It's hard for some Christians to believe Jesus died for our sins. They don't understand that we are adopted sons of God and heirs to the Kingdom.

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Amen Bro. Art

Sometimes I feel a bit like Paul. I get a little confused about what I can do to assure my salvation. I wonder why I would sin if the Holy Spirit dwells within my spirit. Then I realize I have two natures.
I wonder if other Christians still sin? I wonder how much more prideful some others are of what they consider their abilities.
I don't quite meet up to their standards and so it makes me wonder.
Then I have a fellow Christian reassure me with scripture and so I offer thanks.

Philippians 1:5-7
5in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now. 6For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. 7For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me.

Hebrews 13:20-21
20Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord, 21equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

I'm honored to return the favor; "and such was I but I was washed."

"and such were some of you!"

Interesting article;

Re. the question, "Does one then go to he11 because of sins caused by the flesh, even as the dual nature of the Spirit resides in Him?" No, one goes to he11 because he did not have faith in Christ as his savior from his imputed and personal sins.

Re. the question, "So, who dies? The flesh dies (separates), meaning that the believer died to the law; i.e. to the ultimate power of the flesh. Re. "Who after that death lives in him?" The Spirit and the flesh. Re. "Why is it after the death that he lives in him? Why does he live all the way through the event?" Because he's only separated, not destroyed.

Re. the question, "If we die to the law, then what dies?" The law; i.e., the power of sin, which was a consequence of the law. One might say, "our position" in the law.


Maybe we need to level-set on the word, "die," as I'm not sure about your conclusion about permanency. Death means separation--not destruction. Christ's death wasn't permanent, and our physical death won't be either. This is plainly evident in this verse because it first speaks of him who was made to die to the law (separate from the power of the law) through the body of Christ;

http://www.christiandataresources.com/christianssin.htm

My take:

We are dead to the law or power of sin. We are separated from sin in that it has no bondage of our souls.
Death from sin being separation. The same meaning of death that we use to describe being separation from God. Death is separation.

This death doesn't mean "sinless perfection." It doesn't mean that Christians can live a life of not sinning. It means we are separated from the hold that sin once held us captive. We are now free. Freedom from sin by the blood of Jesus.
Yes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is powerful. Yet his mission is to help us overcome. God's Spirit is in our spirit. (I borrowed this)
Even with the Holy Spirit, we still have this enemy of the Old Nature.
I still sin, you still sin, we all still sin. It's our old self performing this. The good news is, it don't count for much. The Good News(gospel) is Jesus died to make it not count.
If we could quit sinning, we could save ourselves. I've personally come to the conclusion that I can't quit sinning, even with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. At least my old nature or my flesh. Believe me I've tried. I've now realized that I will never be like Jesus until I can shed myself of this Old Self.
I can do better. I can make improvements. I can help others. I can show love. I can think of others before myself. I can forgive others of trespasses.
For me personally I can have less lust in my heart and less anger to my brothers. I've got plenty of room for improvements. I hope I will never have the feeling that I'm any better than the worse sinning Christian in the world. Because I'm truly not any different.
We are both washed. We are equally guilty. Jesus died for that person just as he died for me.
Truthfully, I'm probably not very far off from being the most sinful Christian in the world. In this regards perhaps this is why I believe Jesus died for me. If he died for a wretch like me, then the more righteous people should be a shoo-in.
If Jesus has offered salvation to me then the fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, swindlers, greed, wickedness, deceit, lustful desires, envy, slander, pride, foolishness, slave traders, promise breakers, liars, perjurers, and even the harlot mongers will be offered the same salvation.
My Old Self keeps on sinning just as the Old Self of the above mentioned sinners keeps on sinning.
There is no "super-salvation" offered to the righteous. It's "salvation" offered to all.

Romans 3:23
since all have sinned and continue to fall short of God's glory.

Happy is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity.
Happier still, is the man who knows the Lord does not want to, and has moved heaven and earth to get to him to save him out of them.

When the Lord is seen, not as eager "pick off pitcher" playing for a different team, but called us to his side, out of longing and love, the game changes. It's not dodge ball, it's not a linebacker blitz, it's more like "throw me another one daddy, and show me how to hold the glove so I don't drop it...OK? I like the way you never drop the ball!"
To the casual passerby, when you see that being played, it's very easy to point out all the kid's drops...but then you have to answer to the daddy.
He knows how to play fastball, too.
Casual and casualty...often the second, is a cure for the first.