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  #26  
Old 01-15-2018, 10:01 AM
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Luke 1:32-33
He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, 33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”

2 Samuel 7:13
"He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

Isaiah 9:7
There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

Daniel 2:44
"In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.
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  #27  
Old 01-15-2018, 10:16 AM
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Revelation 11:15
The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever."

Daniel 7:14
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

1 Corinthians 15:24
After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power.

Some thoughts;
I guess he can't give it back to his Father or hand it over perhaps. Then again the Kingdom would still exist even if he did hand it over to his Father.
Do we have verses saying his reign will last forever or just his kingdom will last forever?

"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever."

The kingdom of the world has become.

The kingdom of our Lord(God) and of his Christ, and he will reign forever.
God or Jesus? Maybe both.

How could Jesus continue to rule an everlasting kingdom if he did in fact hand it over to his Father? If he has subject himself to God's throne? If he has relinquished his authority?

"he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father"

It still sounds like the kingdom of this world(earth) is handed over to the Father and is absorbed by the kingdom of God(universe). I know I'm not explaining this very well.

It's like Jesus finished his last mission. He defeats all of the enemies of the Church. He defeats Satan. He defeats death. He returns to the earth and resurrects. He sets up an earthly kingdom. He repairs what Adam messed up. He restores. He judges through the appointment of his Father.
He returns everything complete to his Father. Then he hands over his kingdom and even subjects himself to his Father.

Last edited by Artfuldodger; 01-15-2018 at 10:58 AM.
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  #28  
Old 01-15-2018, 12:24 PM
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Luke 1:33 shows His eternal reign along with Daniel 9:7.

God being all in all required Jesus to turn the Kingdom and Himself subject to God... That God be everything ...everywhere, not just the God of Israel.


1 Corinthians 15:28New Living Translation (NLT)
28 Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere
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  #29  
Old 01-15-2018, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by hobbs27 View Post
Luke 1:33 shows His eternal reign along with Daniel 9:7.

God being all in all required Jesus to turn the Kingdom and Himself subject to God... That God be everything ...everywhere, not just the God of Israel.


1 Corinthians 15:28New Living Translation (NLT)
28 Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere
Doesn't 1 Corinthians 15:28 make it appear that the Father lost some of his authority by giving it to his Son? That in order for the Father to gain complete authority over everything everywhere, the Son had to relinquish the authority that his Father gave him?

In other words, Jesus had to hand over his kingdom to his Father to make all in all. Regardless of if this meant the Jewish Kingdom so that God could extend his kingdom to the gentiles. Regardless if it's already happened or not.
Regardless of what this kingdom was or is, Jesus had to or will have to hand it over to the Father in order for God to be all in all.

Notice how some versions of this verse say "the Son will put himself under God's authority" instead of "the Son will put himself under his Father's authority" as if maybe they see it as the human side of Jesus handing it over to the God side.
It's weird to say the Son will hand it over to God if in fact the Son is God. That and the need to subject himself to God after handing over his kingdom.

If in fact the Son has always been equal to the Father. Sometimes the Trinity or Oneness doesn't always make it easy to understand.

Last edited by Artfuldodger; 01-15-2018 at 03:56 PM.
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  #30  
Old 01-15-2018, 03:51 PM
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Jesus took the Kingdom from the Jewish leaders... He then presented the Kingdom to God that God could be Everything ...Everywhere.

The Kingdom would then have Jesus as the High Priest and it would be spiritual, and without borders.

It's about the exchanging of the priesthood and expansion of the Kingdom.
Maybe this is the missing link of God taking the kingdom from the Jews and giving it to the Gentiles. One would have to overlook the word nation(ethnos) and not nations. I guess your belief in it being a spiritual nation may be the ethnos.
You wondered what I was talking about the mystery revealed to Paul. Could this be the mystery revealed by Paul? That Jesus handed over his kingdom(Israel) to God in order for God to extend his kingdom to all in all(Gentiles).
Can we tie Romans 11 in with this?
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  #31  
Old 01-15-2018, 05:35 PM
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Maybe this is the missing link of God taking the kingdom from the Jews and giving it to the Gentiles. One would have to overlook the word nation(ethnos) and not nations. I guess your belief in it being a spiritual nation may be the ethnos.
You wondered what I was talking about the mystery revealed to Paul. Could this be the mystery revealed by Paul? That Jesus handed over his kingdom(Israel) to God in order for God to extend his kingdom to all in all(Gentiles).
Can we tie Romans 11 in with this?
Here is the first generation church calling themselves a Holy nation.
1Peter 2:9
But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light


All scripture links when you have truth, it's amazing really, when you find a link like this it corresponds with other scripture in truth.
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  #32  
Old 01-15-2018, 06:35 PM
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Here is the first generation church calling themselves a Holy nation.
1Peter 2:9
But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light


All scripture links when you have truth, it's amazing really, when you find a link like this it corresponds with other scripture in truth.
Yes that may be the nation mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:28.

But Israel was chosen too;
1 Peter 2:8
and, "A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.
9But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people.

Were they chosen forever to stumble by the stumbling stone? Does Romans 11 say they were destined for permanent failure to make this great nation Peter speaks of?

I want you to tie in Romans 11 to this narrative like you did 1 Peter 2:8. Show the Romans 11 connection to 1 Corinthians 15 as you see it.

You are trying to say that God has abandoned Israel forever and Jesus has turned over that Kingdom(Israel) to God so that he can enlarge it and expand it to the Gentiles.
You are making it permanent in that Israel can be no more by having Jesus hand over his Kingdom to God.

It just sounds like another angle to deny Israel any type of un-blinding as mentioned in Romans 11.
Israel destined to be blinded forever. Jesus turns over his Kingdom.(Israel) God can now present it to the Gentiles.(Universal kingdom mentioned in 1 Peter 2)

Continue on with 1 Peter 2:10;
"Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy."

Add this one too;
Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

So I guess the way you see it, in 1 Corinthians 15 is Christ has handed over the kingdom(Israel) so that God can now give the world hope.

It's like taking "Replacement Theology" to a whole new level.

I will continue to study this. Yours is an interesting case.
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  #33  
Old 01-15-2018, 07:33 PM
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Yes that may be the nation mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:28.

But Israel was chosen too;
1 Peter 2:8
and, "A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.
9But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people.

Were they chosen forever to stumble by the stumbling stone? Does Romans 11 say they were destined for permanent failure to make this great nation Peter speaks of?

I want you to tie in Romans 11 to this narrative like you did 1 Peter 2:8. Show the Romans 11 connection to 1 Corinthians 15 as you see it.

You are trying to say that God has abandoned Israel forever and Jesus has turned over that Kingdom(Israel) to God so that he can enlarge it and expand it to the Gentiles.
You are making it permanent in that Israel can be no more by having Jesus hand over his Kingdom to God.

It just sounds like another angle to deny Israel any type of un-blinding as mentioned in Romans 11.
Israel destined to be blinded forever. Jesus turns over his Kingdom.(Israel) God can now present it to the Gentiles.(Universal kingdom mentioned in 1 Peter 2)

Continue on with 1 Peter 2:10;
"Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy."

Add this one too;
Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

So I guess the way you see it, in 1 Corinthians 15 is Christ has handed over the kingdom(Israel) so that God can now give the world hope.

It's like taking "Replacement Theology" to a whole new level.

I will continue to study this. Yours is an interesting case.
let me explain this... While you ponder more. The Gospel was the mechanism to cure Israel's blindness..Many of Israel came into the church.. Matter of fact the majority of the first generation church was Israelites, but Physical Israel was cast out with the children she produced... Galatians 4 Abraham had two sons.


So what I'm saying... It's not replacement theology, but a continuation of God's kingdom.
although the priesthood and royal family has changed.
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  #34  
Old 01-15-2018, 08:00 PM
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let me explain this... While you ponder more. The Gospel was the mechanism to cure Israel's blindness..Many of Israel came into the church.. Matter of fact the majority of the first generation church was Israelites, but Physical Israel was cast out with the children she produced... Galatians 4 Abraham had two sons.


So what I'm saying... It's not replacement theology, but a continuation of God's kingdom.
although the priesthood and royal family has changed.
Luke 1:32-33
He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, 33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!

It has to be a continuation of something Jewish or related to the house of David. Gentiles grafted in, etc.
We can't say that somehow Israel was handed over so that God could expand. That would be replacement.

This handing over of that kingdom would not make a continuation possible. It could make a replacement possible. There would be no way for any Gentiles to be grafted in if it was already handed over.

There still has to be some type of House of Jacob connection to make a grafting possible.

The stumbling stone caused them to stumble for which they were destined. Because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.
You mentioned the gospel. As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
There is still a connection to the House of Jacob. Gentiles are still being grafted into it. It hasn't been handed over to God. This handing over of the kingdom was not necessary to make this grafting possible.
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  #35  
Old 01-15-2018, 08:06 PM
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Isaiah 45:23
I have sworn by my own name; I have spoken the truth, and I will never go back on my word: Every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will confess allegiance to me."

Romans 14:11
For the Scriptures say, "'As surely as I live,' says the LORD, every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will confess and give praise to God.'"

This and then the kingdom will be handed over from the Son to the Father. That will be "all in all."
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Old 01-15-2018, 08:12 PM
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Isaac was the child of promise not Ishmael.

Hagar and Ishmael is what was cast out in 70 ad.

Isaac received the inheritance.. As a child of the promise.. The church is Isaac..we are the children of the New covenant... We are the promise all Israel looked to.
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  #37  
Old 01-16-2018, 09:25 AM
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Isaac was the child of promise not Ishmael.

Hagar and Ishmael is what was cast out in 70 ad.

Isaac received the inheritance.. As a child of the promise.. The church is Isaac..we are the children of the New covenant... We are the promise all Israel looked to.
That kinda wraps up this whole discussion right there. The Gentiles never were without God and hope. Israel never had God or hope. They were destined for failure to show the world who the true Ethnos was.
The true Ethnos didn't "replace" it always "was."

It's always been "all in all."

Now if Paul had just not wrote to the Romans.
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  #38  
Old 01-16-2018, 05:57 PM
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That kinda wraps up this whole discussion right there. The Gentiles never were without God and hope. Israel never had God or hope. They were destined for failure to show the world who the true Ethnos was.
The true Ethnos didn't "replace" it always "was."

It's always been "all in all."

Now if Paul had just not wrote to the Romans.
maybe if you don't look at it in a carnal genealogical way, and just see it as those that had faith in the Spirit... faith in God, were receivers of the inheritance.... a bunch made up mostly of Israelites... and mostly of dead Israelites that were raised from the dead to become one Body with the then living... The body of Christ?
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  #39  
Old 01-16-2018, 10:18 PM
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maybe if you don't look at it in a carnal genealogical way, and just see it as those that had faith in the Spirit... faith in God, were receivers of the inheritance.... a bunch made up mostly of Israelites... and mostly of dead Israelites that were raised from the dead to become one Body with the then living... The body of Christ?
The only way I could see it in a non-carnal genealogical way would be to see it as those who had faith are the ones who will receive an inheritance.
Maybe more in line with the Reformed view. I'd have to cast aside Romans and Ephesians in order to do that.

I'd have to remove verses like;

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Romans 9:22-23
In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.
23He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory.

1 Peter 2:8
And, "He is the stone that makes people stumble, the rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they do not obey God's word, and so they meet the fate that was planned for them.

Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame."

Romans 10:19
But I ask, did the people of Israel really understand? Yes, they did, for even in the time of Moses, God said, "I will rouse your jealousy through people who are not even a nation. I will provoke your anger through the foolish Gentiles."

Romans 11:7
What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,

Romans 11:11
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

These verses show a carnal genealogical way.
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Old 01-16-2018, 10:35 PM
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I can see it going down a couple of different ways. One was that there never was a carnal genealogical way. The children of Abraham never were the physical children of Abraham.

Another way might be that Israel was set up in God's plan to stumble and bring salvation to the true children. God placed the stumbling stone. He may have did this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy. In this way it never was about Israel either other than to bring light to the Gentiles.

One other way of many beliefs might be that God chose Israel as a nation for some reason unknown to me. He chose Israel, God only knows. He still placed a stumbling stone in their path as a way to offer salvation to the Gentiles but his Nation was still his chosen. In this belief one has to be grafted into the Commonwealth of Israel to receive the promises. In this way Israel was made to stumble but not beyond recovery. The stumble allowed God to offer salvation to the rest of the world.
This was done to make Israel jealous.

But as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. Gentiles who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience. Israel had to disobey in order to receive the mercy shown to the Gentiles.

Paul said do not be ignorant of this mystery to the point you might be conceited. Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

Romans 11:33
O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!

So either it's always been about who had faith and nothing else or we can add in the whole carnal genealogical way that God included in his Scripture.
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Old 01-20-2018, 07:42 AM
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Galatians 3: 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
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Old 01-20-2018, 09:18 AM
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Galatians 3: 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
We can go back even farther to find out who "they" were. All the way to before time;

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children"
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world"
"to them who are the called according to [his] purpose."
"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you"
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate"
"not according to our works, but according to his own purpose"
" In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated"

Proverbs 16:4 - The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
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Old 01-20-2018, 09:25 AM
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Romans 9:8
In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

Romans 9:15
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

Romans 9:17
For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Romans 9:21-24
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? 23What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory — 24including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles?

God is very clear from before time who "they" were. It never was about the Jews or Gentiles.

I wish God would have left all that Jew and Gentile stuff out of the Bible. I wish Jesus wasn't a Jew. It would have made the final outcome of his plan easier to grasp.

Romans 11:33
O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!
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Old 01-20-2018, 10:32 AM
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They were the chosen.. the elect... the remnant.. It all came about in their time in their generation... They got to see the old covenant pass and the new one consumated.

It was a special time For had planned from the start.
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Old 01-20-2018, 10:43 AM
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They were the chosen.. the elect... the remnant.. It all came about in their time in their generation... They got to see the old covenant pass and the new one consumated.

It was a special time For had planned from the start.
Disregarding all of that, was the children of the promise ever other than who they always were?
In other words the children of Abraham never were physical. They were always children of the promise. They were always the ones who had faith.

The Church didn't become or fulfill or supersede Israel.
Even if things were placed in a timeline, in God's Word it was always about those who had faith as mentioned in Galatians 3: 8.

The promises made to Israel, never were to physical Israel. Nothing happened within time that made the true children change from who they always were.
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Old 01-20-2018, 04:14 PM
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Disregarding all of that, was the children of the promise ever other than who they always were?
In other words the children of Abraham never were physical. They were always children of the promise. They were always the ones who had faith.

The Church didn't become or fulfill or supersede Israel.
Even if things were placed in a timeline, in God's Word it was always about those who had faith as mentioned in Galatians 3: 8.

The promises made to Israel, never were to physical Israel. Nothing happened within time that made the true children change from who they always were.

The dead rose, and we're judged. They died because of Adam.. Rose because of Christ, judged on faith, joined the living to form one body of Christ.

That's the way I read it anyway.. Death is now defeated and we close these biological eyes one day, shed this flesh, then spend eternity in the spiritual realm with God.
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