God's will vs. medicine.......

ky55 · Mar 26, 2018

Does Faith Tabernacle beliefs put children at risk?

“Jonathan and Grace Foster of Berks County have been charged with involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment in the death of their two-year-old daughter, Ella. The girl died in November from pneumonia. The Fosters, who are members of Mechanicsburg-based Faith Tabernacle congregation, attributed the toddler's death to "God's will." Their church prohibits medical care of any kind.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.pennlive.com/news/2017/02/faith_healing_faith_tabernacle.amp

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WaltL1 · Mar 26, 2018

Does Faith Tabernacle beliefs put children at risk?

I think it would be pretty impossible to say no.

Ella's death adds to the roster of children who every year die as a result of having been denied medical attention on the grounds of religious convictions. In almost all the cases, children have died from diseases or conditions that could have been treated with medicine.

And this is nonsense -

"It's not cut and dry," she said. "For people to say horrible things about the Fosters, well they are just being judgmental. These are good people who don't know any better."

They do know better. They made a conscience decision to not provide medical care to a child. The reason for that wasn't because they didn't know the medicine could help.
They aren't good people. They put their own selfish reasons above their childs life.

SemperFiDawg · Mar 26, 2018

ky55 said:
Does Faith Tabernacle beliefs put children at risk?

“Jonathan and Grace Foster of Berks County have been charged with involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment in the death of their two-year-old daughter, Ella. The girl died in November from pneumonia. The Fosters, who are members of Mechanicsburg-based Faith Tabernacle congregation, attributed the toddler's death to "God's will." Their church prohibits medical care of any kind.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.pennlive.com/news/2017/02/faith_healing_faith_tabernacle.amp

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It’s murder due to neglect and should be treated as such, and I agree it was a conscious decision.

welderguy · Mar 26, 2018

Doctors are good.(most are)
Luke was a doctor.
Sick people need doctors...just like broke things need welders. :bounce:

WaltL1 · Mar 26, 2018

SemperFiDawg said:
It’s murder due to neglect and should be treated as such, and I agree it was a conscious decision.

And it certainly wasn't -

been charged with involuntary manslaughter

It was completely voluntary.

Ive said this before and its examples like this that supports it -
If God and the devil actually exist, organized religion is probably the devil's greatest accomplishment.

Miguel Cervantes · Mar 26, 2018

ky55 said:
Does Faith Tabernacle beliefs put children at risk?

“Jonathan and Grace Foster of Berks County have been charged with involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment in the death of their two-year-old daughter, Ella. The girl died in November from pneumonia. The Fosters, who are members of Mechanicsburg-based Faith Tabernacle congregation, attributed the toddler's death to "God's will." Their church prohibits medical care of any kind.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.pennlive.com/news/2017/02/faith_healing_faith_tabernacle.amp

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I believe their beliefs are contrary to God's ability to give people certain talents (skills not money) and those very same people with God given skills / callings to use those talents to do good for the mankind, such as creating drugs that will cure illnesses.

atlashunter · Apr 19, 2018

I can point to scriptures that claim the effectiveness of prayer and faith healing. If those are true then who needs a fallible human doctor when you’ve got doctor Jesus? How many times have we been told that prayers are answered according to his will? If that is true and these people used prayer and he chose not to heal the children then the outcome was according to his will. If you’re going to tout the power of faith then at least have some consistency about it. Don’t back down when you don’t get the desired results.

Miguel Cervantes · Apr 19, 2018

atlashunter said:
I can point to scriptures that claim the effectiveness of prayer and faith healing. If those are true then who needs a fallible human doctor when you’ve got doctor Jesus? How many times have we been told that prayers are answered according to his will? If that is true and these people used prayer and he chose not to heal the children then the outcome was according to his will. If you’re going to tout the power of faith then at least have some consistency about it. Don’t back down when you don’t get the desired results.

I never pray for "my" will or desire to be done. I only pray that "His" will be done. If you're going to have faith big enough to follow Him then you must have faith big enough to accept His decisions according to His plan.

atlashunter · Apr 19, 2018

Miguel Cervantes said:
I never pray for "my" will or desire to be done. I only pray that "His" will be done. If you're going to have faith big enough to follow Him then you must have faith big enough to accept His decisions according to His plan.

That’s exactly what those parents did. Prayed and accepted that whatever happens is in his hands.

Miguel Cervantes · Apr 19, 2018

atlashunter said:
That’s exactly what those parents did. Prayed and accepted that whatever happens is in his hands.

The difference is I also believe God has given us many talents and callings in life, several of which include the intelligence to develop drugs and Dr's with the skill to perform surgeries that make a difference.

Otherwise, how could we believe in such thing as those called to be preachers. All have their faults and a percentage are no good at what they do and perhaps are not following their true calling in regards to the talents given them. Are they serving the mighty dollar or God in their ambitions for their definition of success?

atlashunter · Apr 19, 2018

Miguel Cervantes said:
The difference is I also believe God has given us many talents and callings in life, several of which include the intelligence to develop drugs and Dr's with the skill to perform surgeries that make a difference.

Otherwise, how could we believe in such thing as those called to be preachers. All have their faults and a percentage are no good at what they do and perhaps are not following their true calling in regards to the talents given them. Are they serving the mighty dollar or God in their ambitions for their definition of success?

That's all well and good but the scriptures on healing make no mention of going that route. And why would they when they proclaim the power of supernatural faith based healing? If someone wants to live their life strictly according to scripture then on that basis they should be able to rely 100% on faith healing. That's what these people did. They trusted their god and lost their kid to something that probably could have been treated with conventional medicine. Was that the will of their god? Perhaps. Or perhaps their god doesn't exist. The outcome is the same in either case. In either case it's a wonder why anyone would choose to worship such a god.

ambush80 · Apr 19, 2018

All things to His glory.

This is one of the best examples of why laws need to be based on rational, humanist, secular thinking.

Miguel Cervantes · Apr 19, 2018

atlashunter said:
That's all well and good but the scriptures on healing make no mention of going that route. And why would they when they proclaim the power of supernatural faith based healing? If someone wants to live their life strictly according to scripture then on that basis they should be able to rely 100% on faith healing. That's what these people did. They trusted their god and lost their kid to something that probably could have been treated with conventional medicine. Was that the will of their god? Perhaps. Or perhaps their god doesn't exist. The outcome is the same in either case. In either case it's a wonder why anyone would choose to worship such a god.

Luke was a physician.

oldfella1962 · Apr 19, 2018

realistically medical science was so primitive 2,000 years ago that prayer might have as good a chance of healing someone as a doctor would. These days it's a completely different situation at least here in the developed world.
These parents are pathetic and blind to reality. :banginghe

atlashunter · Apr 19, 2018

oldfella1962 said:
realistically medical science was so primitive 2,000 years ago that prayer might have as good a chance of healing someone as a doctor would. These days it's a completely different situation at least here in the developed world.
These parents are pathetic and blind to reality.

When I read the bible I don't get the impression that one should expect prayer to be about as effective as iron age medicine was.

And Jesus said, “Have faith in God, for I say that whosoever says to this mountain, “Be thrown into the see and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he has said will happen it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it and it will be yours.” Mark 11:22-24

Is anyone sick among you? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. James 5:14-16

Matthew 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith

John 14:13-14 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it

John 14:12, KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

The terms "will" and "shall" are repeatedly used to describe the efficacy one can expect from prayer. It sets the expectation that this is something one can reasonably pin their hopes on. The parents in this case did that. They had enough faith to bet their child's life on prayer. These scriptures don't indicate prayer should be expected to work at a rate indistinguishable from no prayers at all. They are meant to inspire confidence in the power of prayer. Is that confidence justified? In this case it appears not.

ambush80 · Apr 19, 2018

atlashunter said:
When I read the bible I don't get the impression that one should expect prayer to be about as effective as iron age medicine was.

And Jesus said, “Have faith in God, for I say that whosoever says to this mountain, “Be thrown into the see and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he has said will happen it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it and it will be yours.” Mark 11:22-24

Is anyone sick among you? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. James 5:14-16

Matthew 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith

John 14:13-14 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it

John 14:12, KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

The terms "will" and "shall" are repeatedly used to describe the efficacy one can expect from prayer. It sets the expectation that this is something one can reasonably pin their hopes on. The parents in this case did that. They had enough faith to bet their child's life on prayer. These scriptures don't indicate prayer should be expected to work at a rate indistinguishable from no prayers at all. They are meant to inspire confidence in the power of prayer. Is that confidence justified? In this case it appears not.

If one is a Predestination believer, and one must logically come to that position, then you don't pray to change things, you pray because you are instructed to.

Matthew 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith

You WILL receive an answer and it will reflect His will; His plan.

Yes. No. Maybe So.

http://www.magicmgmt.com/gary/magic8ball/index1.html

Think of a question and left click.....if you dare. I asked it if I will go to He11. It said "Ask again later". :hair:

atlashunter · Apr 19, 2018

ambush80 said:
If one is a Predestination believer, and one must logically come to that position, then you don't pray to change things, you pray because you are instructed to.

Matthew 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith

You WILL receive an answer and it will reflect His will; His plan.

Yes. No. Maybe So.

http://www.magicmgmt.com/gary/magic8ball/index1.html

Think of a question and left click.....if you dare. I asked it if I will go to He11. It said "Ask again later".

Says you will receive whatever you ask.

ambush80 · Apr 19, 2018

atlashunter said:
Says you will receive whatever you ask.

I'm just practicing the Apologetics Two Step.

WaltL1 · Apr 20, 2018

atlashunter said:
When I read the bible I don't get the impression that one should expect prayer to be about as effective as iron age medicine was.

And Jesus said, “Have faith in God, for I say that whosoever says to this mountain, “Be thrown into the see and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he has said will happen it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it and it will be yours.” Mark 11:22-24

Is anyone sick among you? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. James 5:14-16

Matthew 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith

John 14:13-14 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it

John 14:12, KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

The terms "will" and "shall" are repeatedly used to describe the efficacy one can expect from prayer. It sets the expectation that this is something one can reasonably pin their hopes on. The parents in this case did that. They had enough faith to bet their child's life on prayer. These scriptures don't indicate prayer should be expected to work at a rate indistinguishable from no prayers at all. They are meant to inspire confidence in the power of prayer. Is that confidence justified? In this case it appears not.

When I read the bible I don't get the impression

That's because you are reading the scripture for exactly what it says.
Step 2 is to twist it around so it means what you want it to mean.

ambush80 · Apr 20, 2018

WaltL1 said:
That's because you are reading the scripture for exactly what it says.
Step 2 is to twist it around so it means what you want it to mean.

You mean you have to receive holy discernment.

God's will vs. medicine.......

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