Because of ministers of righteousness people continue to operated today in their thinking, nothings really changed. Their people are under the assumption that their sin debt is separation from God. If an ounce of new reconciliation in this Age of Grace could be restored for anyone when it comes to the issue of their sin debt then the degree of forgiveness that must be obtained in order to restore the reconciliation is the very degree to which that individual refuses to believe that Jesus accomplished it all. Paul’s good news message is hid from those people. They don’t understand what reconciliation is all about. They think that new sin (as Israel’s atonement work) needs a new measure of reconciliation. So they seek forgiveness on the installment plan. Is that not the golden thread woven through every denomination out there? It is. The issue at the Great White Throne Judgement will be those standing there in their own righteousness and not in God’s righteousness.
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Because of ministers of righteousness people continue to operated today in their thinking, nothings really changed. Their people are under the assumption that their sin debt is separation from God. If an ounce of new reconciliation in this Age of Grace could be restored for anyone when it comes to the issue of their sin debt then the degree of forgiveness that must be obtained in order to restore the reconciliation is the very degree to which that individual refuses to believe that Jesus accomplished it all. Paul’s good news message is hid from those people. They don’t understand what reconciliation is all about. They think that new sin (as Israel’s atonement work) needs a new measure of reconciliation. So they seek forgiveness on the installment plan. Is that not the golden thread woven through every denomination out there? It is. The issue at the Great White Throne Judgement will be those standing there in their own righteousness and not in God’s righteousness.
hobbs27
Senior Member
The issue at the Great White Throne Judgment was to separate the Sheep from the Goats . That issue is mission accomplished.
Israel supposed they were producing sufficient righteousness through their performance for God to recognize their performance and call them just in his eyes. They thought they were measuring up to God’s standard. How many people think they’re measuring up to God’s standard today? The religious people across the land are doing that very thing. Israel wore their self righteousness like a badge of honor.
hobbs27
Senior Member
True Israel did measure up to God's standard and they believed. They were the Sheep in which Jesus came for.
Apostate Israel rejected Jesus and faced the wrath of God in 70ad. They were the goats.
The criteria for salvation is repentance and repentance means turning away from sinning or, at least, a commitment to turn away from your sinning. This is what is commonly taught from the pulpits across the country, from the pulpits of pastors who REFUSE to acknowledge the truth of 2 Corinthians 5:18-21. Has sin been taken off the table of God’s justice through Jesus’ death for those sins according to the apostle Paul, or has it not? Now, how many people not understanding Justification or Sanctification will look at 1 Corinthians 9:27 and say, “See there! If you don’t live right, if you just let that flesh run wild, why, you’re going to be a castaway, you’re going to lose your salvation.” They take one passage while ignoring everything else, out of its context. A passage out of its context is a pretext, and so their pretext is you can lose your salvation which is foolishness.
How many of us share Paul’s concern today when it comes to the life we live out of appreciation, not out of apprehension, or out of an attempt to earn a more righteous standing before God? What Paul is telling us here is not how he set himself apart in order to gain a greater righteousness before God through his performance, but how he made his life-style (to the best he could) conform to who God has already made him to be in his sanctified or set-apart identity being joined to the Savior that he might more affectively reach others. That was Paul’s key motivation. There is a vast difference in those two motivations.
hobbs27
Senior Member
Do you do telecommunication sales for a living? If not, you have really missed your calling.
centerpin fan
Senior Member
You need to go to Vectorman's Bible study and unlearn this nonsense.
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=892884
gordon 2
Senior Member
Your so helpful lately with your buds. I wait with wonder for the blooms. Really.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
I understand salvation is based on grace but in the separation of the sheep and goats it appears to be based on works?
Matthew 25:35-37
35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’ 37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink?
41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.44And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.
Matthew 25:35-37
35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’ 37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink?
41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.44And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.
gordon 2
Senior Member
Right... and I suspect what makes this truth is that God did these things for the Hebrew captives and the Christians ( former captives) and advised them to "TAKE GOOD CARE OF THE STRANGER AMONGST YOU". God fed them, healed them, clothed them, gave them to drink and ministered to them --to these stiffnecked people. And He did this out of His love for them...
In very crude terms our Lord heard their/our troubles and identified that our shoes, the shoes of both sinners and saints, are His shoes. Maybe.
"....and he shall bear their iniquities."
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Paul is letting us know here in the book of Romans that God didn’t make Heaven for good people, God made Heaven for sinners who are justified freely by his grace. There are a lot of misconceived notions out there concerning the doctrines of faith, are there not? We have a self-sanctification in the positive sense of separating ourselves from those things we know that are not good for us or not good for others, not in order to merit any more righteousness before God through that performance, but in light of all that God has already made us to be in the Savior. On the opposite end of that self-sanctification spectrum, we have those who suppose that their behavior is the source of their right standing with God. That's self-sanctification negatively. They suppose that becoming more righteous in practice will make them more righteous in God’s sight. Faulty thinking! Paul called it foolish. It will not gain you Heaven. You will only be standing in your own righteousness at the Great White Throne Judgment only to face the second death. Whether they will admit it or not these people link practical righteousness with their salvation to some degree. 

The Word of our salvation washes away any notion of self-cleansing for righteousness as an approach to God. Paul’s good news message rinses any notion of people’s production as the basis of a right standing before God right down the drain and leaves the believer standing only in the purified state of the Savior’s righteousness. It could be said this way: the washing that the Word of God rightly divided provides, cleanses the tidy-bowl of people’s religious stinkin’ thinkin’. Away it goes right down the drain. Only when the truth of reconciliation achieved through Jesus is believed, does a new creation become a reality as far as that individual is concerned. The new creation hinges upon the acceptance that Jesus accomplished reconciliation. The new creation is who you stand to be in the Savior. A new creation is your new identity in the Savior. It’s not how you perform in a different way, or strive to perform in differently, or make commitments to perform differently. It all has to do with your being placed into the Savior. That’s the new creation. When a person believes in the reality of reconciliation, that person becomes an instantaneous member of the new creation called the Body of the Savior; joined to him.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
I understand Paul teaching a notion of self-cleansing for righteousness being no part of salvation.
Yet we see a separation of the sheep and goats in Matthew that was based on works. Could it be a sanctification from God instead of a self-sanctification that would be the basis for one acquiring the ability to perform those works?
Why was this separation of the sheep and goats by works even mentioned?
Why does God place these works in the salvation equation he uses for the separation, if said works are from his Spirit?
John 15:4
Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
Yet we see a separation of the sheep and goats in Matthew that was based on works. Could it be a sanctification from God instead of a self-sanctification that would be the basis for one acquiring the ability to perform those works?
Why was this separation of the sheep and goats by works even mentioned?
Why does God place these works in the salvation equation he uses for the separation, if said works are from his Spirit?
John 15:4
Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
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Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Concerning the sheep and goats, I'm going to have to say this was about the judgment of nations as Matthew 25:32 says it is nations;
32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Is it possible that some scripture explains physical judgments and
physical salvations from destruction that we confuse with our own salvation from eternal death?
Maybe the sheep and goats separation is about this as it concerns nations and not individuals. I see a lot of scripture that appears to be addressing nations and not individuals.
Individual salvation from eternal death is based on grace and not works.
32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Is it possible that some scripture explains physical judgments and
physical salvations from destruction that we confuse with our own salvation from eternal death?
Maybe the sheep and goats separation is about this as it concerns nations and not individuals. I see a lot of scripture that appears to be addressing nations and not individuals.
Individual salvation from eternal death is based on grace and not works.
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