America's first Cold War.

Outstanding history here, thanks to you all.

I take exception only to the claim "first cold war" in the original post. As others have mentioned, England under Charles III was not entirely accepting of the brokered settlement that ended our war of rebellion, or independence.

England, between 1783 and 1814 was consistently, and intentionally, undermining US interests around the Great Lakes, on our western borders, from Florida, and even financially supporting armed insurrection within the US. That certainly meets my definition of a "cold war."

Ya`ll are really missing out until ya`ll have set around with Jay (redneck billcollector) listening to his stories, with a bottle of Knob Creek to share.

The man knows his history.

Nick, your thoughts would be appreciated in this thread. I know you are very well versed on this subject through my numerous conversations with you. You are rather knowledgeable on the history of the "old southwest".

redneck_billcollector said:

Nick, your thoughts would be appreciated in this thread. I know you are very well versed on this subject through my numerous conversations with you. You are rather knowledgeable on the history of the "old southwest".

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Yeah, maybe something on the Thronateeska River. I've read that that is a Muskogee word but it's meaning may predate the Muskogee.

Was the Muskogee nation the same as the Creek nation or were the Muskogee part of the Creek nation?

Artfuldodger said:

Yeah, maybe something on the Thronateeska River. I've read that that is a Muskogee word but it's meaning may predate the Muskogee.

Was the Muskogee nation the same as the Creek nation or were the Muskogee part of the Creek nation?

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Thonateesa translates to "place where flint is gathered." From what I understand anyway. It`s applied to the Flint River through Southwest Georgia because of the vast quantities of Coastal Plains chert all through the area. Numerous quarries have been found all through the area, and the stone has been utilized by all people from the Paleo time period all the way through to European contact. Some of those original Clovis and Simpson points made from our local material are pure works of deadly art.

The first Europeans called the Muskogean People "Creek" Indians because of their established settlements along water sources.

Nic, I'll bring the Knob Creek, just to sit and listen to Y'all yarn about history.
Gary

Nicodemus said:

Thonateesa translates to "place where flint is gathered." From what I understand anyway. It`s applied to the Flint River through Southwest Georgia because of the vast quantities of Coastal Plains chert all through the area. Numerous quarries have been found all through the area, and the stone has been utilized by all people from the Paleo time period all the way through to European contact. Some of those original Clovis and Simpson points made from our local material are pure works of deadly art.

The first Europeans called the Muskogean People "Creek" Indians because of their established settlements along water sources.

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Interesting, thanks. I guess all of that flint came in handy. Lot's of rivers, creeks, springs, and swamps in that part of Georgia for hunting, fishing, and living.

I remember reading about the Battle of Chickasawachee Swamp southwest of Albany. I had a few co-workers that used to try to get in on the quota hunts there.

One thing I've noticed about that area is the limestone geology. It's more pronounced than say in southeast Georgia. Especially below Albany and Valdosta and on into North Florida.
The way the rivers permeate the limestone, etc.

It makes the rivers and creeks around that area look a little different. There are a few limestone outcroppings on the Ocmulgee River but nothing like the Flint, Alapaha, or Suwannee Rivers.

I just finished an interesting history, one that you supplied a link for in one of your posts Artfuldodger. The Histories of the Peoples of Florida. It had an interesting take on the formation of the Seminoles. I had read it before by other authors but I think they downplayed the refugee Creeks which they said was just a made up history to justify American seizure of Florida and the subsequent removal act. (The above referenced history.)

The book started out with a very good history of the Spanish attempts to colonize Florida and the continued failure they met at every turn. This led the Spanish to change their approach. They shifted to an almost "feudal" style system with the various natives in Florida. These natives, the Calusa, the Timucua, the Guale, the Apalachee, the Ais, the Tequesta and some other tribes were rather resistive to the Spanish attempts. The Spaniards attempted to convert many of these tribes and met various degrees of success. Throughout the later half of the 16th century in to the dawning of the 18th Century the various tribes would rebel typically wiping out the Spanish missions and the few plantations the Spanish attempted.

There never were many African slaves bought into Spanish Florida early on, there just were not enough soldiers and Spanish plantations to justify the problems that would arise with widespread use of African Slaves. The Spanish also had a different approach to chattel slavery than the British had. By law you could not break up a family and their laws with regards to earning ones freedom were rather liberal for the times. The laws also required owners to allow their African Slaves to have so many hours a week to make money and grow crops for their use to sell at the markets. Education was also required, they had to be taught to read and write if they desired, this was important, because if you converted to Catholicism you had a fast road to freedom. The Spanish truly felt their mission in life was to save souls for God. The Spanish King also issued an edict in the later half of the 17th Century that if any slave made it Spanish territories and converted to Catholicism they would be granted their freedom. By the late 17th Century the Africans were treated better than the Indians largely because the Indians would only give "lip service" to being Christians. They did not want to give up polygamy nor many of their other practices such as dancing, etc...that the Spanish viewed as pagan.

By the dawn of the 17th Century the native populations in Florida had been decimated, due to epidemic after epidemic and continued rebellion against the Spanish it is estimated that only 10% of the Native population remained in Florida. The Calusa are the only natives to never subjugate themselves to the Spanish and the missions to the Calusa controlled areas always met with failure. They stayed in a semi-state of war with the Spanish from the moment de Leon first stepped foot in Florida until their virtual extinction as a people occurred in the 17th Century.

In 1670 the final nail in the coffin of the Florida natives was hammered in. The formation of the Charles Town (Charleston) colony in present day South Carolina. This British Colony was envisioned as a "Planter's" colony to supply the growing British Empire with food and other goods along with navel stores for its growing navy. The Portuguese largely controlled the African Slave Market along with the Arabs at the time and African Slaves were rather expensive. A cheaper source of slave labor was stumbled upon by these early Planters surrounding Charles Town.

Since the formation of Roanoke and its disappearance Spain and Britain were in competition and conflict over the lands of North America. The Governor of the Charles Town colony commissioned some of the Planters to raise outfits of the neighboring natives under British command to raid Florida for Native slaves. These raids virtually led to the depopulation of North and Central Florida of its natives. This also led to a continual state of War between the Spanish and the British in Charles Town. What was to become Georgia and North Florida along with the Frontier of future South Carolina became a battle field. Some censuses during this time showed that the Apalachee (or Apalachi) the Timucua and others were down to just a couple of hundred members in their traditional areas (these tribes numbered in the high 10s of thousands if not over 100 thousand each in the early Spanish days). The Yamasee of South Carolina and Georgia and the Lower Creeks of what would become central and southern GA where the natives that largely depopulated Florida, many of these natives accumulated huge fortunes in the trade of Florida Indians. By the end of the first decade of the 18th Century there were no more Indians in Florida to capture for the slave trade, so the number of Africans imported drastically increased. The British had not been overly happy to do so due to the continued "Maroon" slave rebellions that Jamaica seemed to have a never ending supply of. Thus began the seed that became the Seminole peoples.

The native slaves from Florida in many cases escaped the first chance the had. In many cases bringing escaped African slaves with them, having told them about the Spanish policy with regards to African Slaves and the freedom promised them were they to make it to Florida. These run aways would show up at St. Augustine and demanded their freedom, which the Spanish granted them if the converted. The knowledge amongst the African slaves in South Carolina that Florida offered sanctuary to them led to a continual loss of slaves to escape and led to a couple of Slave rebellions that were put down in South Carolina. Due to a shortage of Slaves in South Carolina, the colonist turned upon their allies, the Lower Creeks and the Yamasee for slaves....this led to the Yamasee war of 1715. Upon defeat, the Yamasee and many of the Lower Creek fled to Florida and became allies of the Spanish who allowed them to settle the depopulated areas of the Florida Panhandle and northern peninsular Florida. The run away slaves were also beginning to settle in these areas. Florida was now on the tongues of all the African Slaves in the Carolinas and Virginia and to the colonies to the North, many escaping slavery in New York made it down to Florida by travelling through the indian territories that bordered the Colonies, though some natives made good money by capturing run away slaves.

Because of the slave situation with run aways heading to Florida along with being a buffer with Florida, the colony of Georgia was formed. One interesting clause in the charter for the GA colony was that using African Slaves was prohibited, it was the only colony that upon its founding slavery was prohibited. Oglethorpe argued rightfully that its close proximity to Florida would only lead to disaster.

At this time, one of the larger Indian tribes in GA was the Oconee whos principle town was on the banks the river bearing their name. They were a Hitchiti speaking nation that was loosely allied with the Creek Confederation. As Georgia began to be populated by English colonist who were expanding to their borders, they decided to migrate, this would have been around 1750. This migration was not a peaceful one. They spread out through what is now Southwest Georgia and into the Northern half Florida displacing through combat the refugee lower Creeks and Yamasee. This influx of the Oconee was the founding of the Seminole nation, they adopted into their tribe the few remaining natives of Florida plus the Lower Creek and Yamasee along with the run away slaves in the area. By then the Spanish had learned their lesson with trying to make subjects of the natives in florida , so these new arrivals were seen as a good buffer against the British in Georgia and were left to their own devises for government and were not used as "feudal serfs" like the prior natives had been. Since they were left to handle most of their affairs and there was no attempt to make conversion compulsory they were referred to as Cimarrons, literally untamed, in Spanish, which became Seminoles.

That was an interesting bit of history. The Spanish were big on Catholic conversion. That's how all the people in the Philippines got their "Christian" names.

If slavery wasn't allowed in the British colony of Georgia, was it not allowed until after the independence?

Artfuldodger said:

That was an interesting bit of history. The Spanish were big on Catholic conversion. That's how all the people in the Philippines got their "Christian" names.

If slavery wasn't allowed in the British colony of Georgia, was it not allowed until after the independence?

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It wasn't long until GA allowed slavery....it was 1751 when GA allowed it. Georgia had invaded Florida and laid siege to St. Augustine just prior. The Spanish Governor became "less" abiding to the run aways in the area, that is one of the reasons they moved in to the Indian regions and away from the settled areas. Plus Spain had been dragged into the 7 Years War in 1754..In 1763 Britain gained control of Florida via a treaty that ended the French Indian War, there was an exodus of freemen leaving for Cuba and other Spanish holdings in the Western Hemisphere. Spain was somewhat allied with France during the 7 Years War due the Bourbon hold on the Spanish Thrown then. The French Indian War was a side show of this war which was truly almost a world war.

Those former slaves and their children that did not immigrate became fully integrated with the new Seminole nation. The impetus for slaves to run away to Florida ceased being so large. Many of the natives in Colonial Georgia once again had a financial incentive to raid into Florida to capture run away slaves. The Lower Creeks created a gauntlet for these fugitives from slavery to even reach Florida. It is during this time that the Creek Nation started using African Slaves on their plantations, especially the Lower Creeks who were adopting the ways of the whites quicker than the Upper Creeks.

The presence of these run away slaves led to continual conflict on the Georgia frontier....after the 1st Creek War, many large bands of Creeks from both the Upper and Lower Creeks did large scale slave raids into Florida, these continued even after the US gained Florida. William Weatherford and William McIntosh both participated in, and led some of these raids. The issue of these run aways and Britain encouraging them along with Britain encouraging the Seminoles is what largely led to the 1st Seminole War.

During the Revolution, the British in Florida encouraged slaves to revolt or leave their plantations to fight for the British. The British promised them freedom if they did. Many of them joined Thomas Brown and His Majesty's Florida Rangers and played havoc in Georgia during the War. After the Revolution you had continued British influence in Florida, even though it was returned to Spain. It was during this time that William Bowles created his free "Muskogean State" in North Florida with many Seminoles, especially black Seminoles, that were drawn to his plans......He was eventually captured by a young William Weatherford and turned over to the Spanish for a large reward.

On an interesting aside note, the slave raids and warfare that broke out between the Spanish and their native "allies" (I use the term loosely) and the British from South Carolina and their native allies led to a rather large Spanish attempt to invade South Carolina. A group of around 900 Apalachee (or Apalachi) and a much smaller number of Spanish Soldiers were heading up the Flint River from the heart of Apalachi Country in Northwest Florida. These warriors made up the last of the Apalachee warriors....This took place in 1702. Around 500 lower Creeks along with their handful of Carolinian militia and British officers were on a raid to Florida along the same route.

The Creek, having gotten word that the opposing force was in the same area they were in and that the Spanish force was going to attack them in their sleep set up an interesting ambush. They built campfires along the river and laid out blankets with rocks and other items in them to seem like the whole force was sleeping. The Spanish force attacked overwhelmingly these empty blankets...when all their muskets were fired, the British and Creek force sprung their trap. Due to the surprise and shock of the British/Creek response the Spanish were caught flat footed. Most accounts have all the Spanish force being killed or captured by the smaller British/Creek force. It was known as the Battle of the Blankets.

For years it was thought that it took place near where the Muckalee and Kinchafoonee Creeks drain into the Flint near Albany. That is where I was taught it was located when I was in school. The battle field was never found, most believed it was underwater where the Georgia Power dam was built in the early 20th Century in Albany. It turns out that is not where it was.

When I was in high school my hunting and trapping partner was a young man named Temp Davis. They had a family farm just past Oakfield in Worth Co. It had been in their family since before the War Between the States...it was known as the Davis Farm. A huge bend in the Flint river occurred creating a rather large bulge in their land which is on the east bank of the Flint River. One day in the late 70s or early 80s he and I were looking for artifacts in the sandy soil bordering the river. We started finding historical items, I went and got my mother's metal detector and we started finding all kinds of items, musket balls, buckles, buttons, various other items we had little clue about and trade ax heads....Temp also found a sword hilt.

Temp's father was a huge Alumni from UGA and an executive in GA Power at the time. He gave all we found to the archeology department and we never heard anything else about it. Due to there never being a will on the Davis Farm, the original owner's multitude of heirs owned it together...one of them forced a sale to some Florida Doctors who bought it for hunting. Years later when I was driving up GA 300 I noticed a historical marker on the side of the road which was across the road from the entrance of the old Davis Farm... I stopped to read it having spent much of my youth hunting and trapping on that property. Apparently years after the sale of the farm, the UGA department of archeology or someone associated with them got around to investigating the items we (actually we didn't but Mr. Davis did, we wanted to keep the items) turned over to them. After their investigation...and I am assuming archeological work, they determined what Temp and I had found was the location of the long lost Battle of the Blankets.