Unbiased Opinion

ambush80 said:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5378490/

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great article! The part about evolutionary medicine was my favorite. Definitely my belief that we as a species have evolved an incredibly functional & efficient body, but modern society is degrading it's potential. Smoking, drug/alcohol abuse, obesity/lack of exercise is rapidly degrading our individual bodies and our gene pool that we took so long to perfect.

Forming humans out of clay fully functional sounds great in theory, but I'll believe in the "slow & steady" route of evolution myself. Too much evidence of other primate species & proto-humans (plus up to 4 percent Neanderthal DNA in some of us) and skull shapes & brain capacity changing over time for me to think otherwise.

BTW the most IGNORANT comment against evolution I ever heard came from a senior NCO when I was in the army: "they've had that gorilla in the Atlanta Zoo for over ten years now, and he ain't evolved YET!"

Seriously - where to even begin having an intelligent conversation with somebody when this is their level of understanding of the process?

It seems the basic issue is time. Microevolution is pretty easy for everyone to get their heads around. It happens in a time period we can relate to. The problem arises when we are talking about billions of years. This time frame is hard to grasp, especially if you believe the earth is 6000 years old.

oldfella1962 said:

great article! The part about evolutionary medicine was my favorite. Definitely my belief that we as a species have evolved an incredibly functional & efficient body, but modern society is degrading it's potential. Smoking, drug/alcohol abuse, obesity/lack of exercise is rapidly degrading our individual bodies and our gene pool that we took so long to perfect.

Forming humans out of clay fully functional sounds great in theory, but I'll believe in the "slow & steady" route of evolution myself. Too much evidence of other primate species & proto-humans (plus up to 4 percent Neanderthal DNA in some of us) and skull shapes & brain capacity changing over time for me to think otherwise.

BTW the most IGNORANT comment against evolution I ever heard came from a senior NCO when I was in the army: "they've had that gorilla in the Atlanta Zoo for over ten years now, and he ain't evolved YET!"

Seriously - where to even begin having an intelligent conversation with somebody when this is their level of understanding of the process?

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We're actually a bit clunky and some of our parts don't seem to be designed very well.

http://nautil.us/issue/24/error/top-10-design-flaws-in-the-human-body

https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-most-unfortunate-design-flaws-in-the-human-body-1518242787

There's plenty more.

I agree with you that it might be difficult to discuss these facts with someone who would call a god that drowns the world good and loving. Right off the bat there's definitional problems.

660griz said:

It seems the basic issue is time. Microevolution is pretty easy for everyone to get their heads around. It happens in a time period we can relate to. The problem arises when we are talking about billions of years. This time frame is hard to grasp, especially if you believe the earth is 6000 years old.

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There are so many things that are hard to grasp. I understand the appeal of saying they're caused by magic or the supernatural. We've discarded most of what used to be called supernatural explanations and we've NEVER EVER gone back to one. I expect the trend to continue.

ambush80 said:

There are so many things that are hard to grasp. I understand the appeal of saying they're caused by magic or the supernatural. We've discarded most of what used to be called supernatural explanations and we've NEVER EVER gone back to one. I expect the trend to continue.

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Which is exactly why, in my unbiased opinion, "I/We don't know", is a much better answer than, "God did it."

660griz said:

Which is exactly why, in my unbiased opinion, "I/We don't know", is a much better answer than, "God did it."

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More importantly, when someone says they believe something based on scientific evidence there's always the underlying caveat that their beliefs might change as more info comes in. That caveat is often completely absent from religious belief.

They will change but look how hard it is for them to do it. Look how long it took for the Pope to recognize evolution and the age of the Universe; the guy still wearing a crazy hat.

ambush80 said:

We're actually a bit clunky and some of our parts don't seem to be designed very well.

http://nautil.us/issue/24/error/top-10-design-flaws-in-the-human-body

https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-most-unfortunate-design-flaws-in-the-human-body-1518242787

There's plenty more.

I agree with you that it might be difficult to discuss these facts with someone who would call a god that drowns the world good and loving. Right off the bat there's definitional problems.

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Unless "good" and "loving" which are presumed to be understood as an a priori, are discovered to not at all mean what the presumptuous one believed.

Me, I've drowned plenty of men. Held them under...so how can I accuse? Or begin to think I know what love is?

Israel said:

Unless "good" and "loving" which are presumed to be understood as an a priori, are discovered to not at all mean what the presumptuous one believed.

Me, I've drowned plenty of men. Held them under...so how can I accuse? Or begin to think I know what love is?

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Maybe you're the wrong person to ask.

ambush80 said:

Maybe you're the wrong person to ask.

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Yes. It is far better to ask your maker. And maybe just considering one is made...may mark more of a trail to an answer than was previously imagined.

In a mind that as easily holds all that is not as well as all that is...you are.

Israel said:

Yes. It is far better to ask your maker. And maybe just considering one is made...may mark more of a trail to an answer than was previously imagined.

In a mind that as easily holds all that is not as well as all that is...you are.

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I asked my maker. He doesn't speak. Why? He doesn't say.

(I ripped that off from GI Joe : Rise of Cobra)

Don't give up!

Look, someone far wiser: "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you"

I'm not doubting your asking. And it doesn't much matter if you doubt mine. I don't have God "in my pocket" to flash a glimpse as though He's trained to my will.

Have you not often said (in some manner) you'd rather have a man to man (at least with me) than the something other you sense I have projected?

Man to man...do we agree that persistence is a signal mark of importance? I think you know what I mean. If a thing is really important to someone...they keep at it. It may be that the only true measure of importance...of anything...to anyone...is measured so.

I see now there's some talk of humility in a thread, what it looks like, how it is expressed. Even "who" really has it, as might be testified to in their expression. But, I believe you also know words can come cheap, at least (seemingly so) to some spenders. But what else do we have to give one another to mark who and where we are?

"He's a man who is as good as his word". That could most sound as a complimentary thing. But, really...who escapes it? Hitler was also as "good as his word", wasn't he? It entirely rests upon foundation. Now, a naive German might say (or have said) "No, he promised us greatness and failed miserably"...still not seeing he gave all he promised to those who are, or were, so easily convinced of their own false foundation. Their foundation of an innate superiority. (though some I am relatively sure still held "But O!...we were this close!")

But ultimately...Hitler did manage, did he not...to bring to display all of the innate superiority of those who believed him. And quite a bit turned out to be rather he11ish, no? And it was not...sufficient. At least to what men believed was meant by "triumph".

But, a miss is as good as a mile, ain't it? And these tribal things play out, and have played out it seems, forever. Call out the name of your tribe on the frontier and find there's always an answer. Another tribe glad to engage on the very same foundation your cry was made "At last...an opportunity to prove our greatness!". And wars.

How close can a man bear? When his shout at the frontier has now brought one to his very home, past all defenses, his will to triumph...shown most particularly now as his own undoing...and the knife of another is at the throats of all he has ever held dear, now completely disabused of all the false notion "I am able to keep what is mine!".

Nevertheless, this is the call out.


But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who, after you have been killed, has power to throw you into he11. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!

I tell you...Jesus has done exactly what He has said, He has shown me Someone.

And He is loose...in my house.