The spirit teaches

NE GA Pappy

Mr. Pappy
That would make it rough on a deaf ,blind, mentally challenged person who didn't have a preacher to preach to him/her before they died.

Is it possible that it has a different meaning?

I think you are grasping at straws here. To hear means to have the message communicated. If the person is not physically able to have any communication, then that is Gods issue to judge. Would that fall under the age of accountability? If they never reached a mental age to understand, then they wouldn't be held responsible.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Romans 10:14 would tend to make me believe that Paul thought so.

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Romans 10:20
And Isaiah boldly says, "I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."

John 8:47
Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
I think you are grasping at straws here. To hear means to have the message communicated. If the person is not physically able to have any communication, then that is Gods issue to judge. Would that fall under the age of accountability? If they never reached a mental age to understand, then they wouldn't be held responsible.

John 15:21-22
But they will treat you like this on account of My name, because they do not know the One who sent Me. 22If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.

John 9:41-42
40Some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard this, and they asked Him, “Are we blind too?” 41“If you were blind, Jesus replied, “you would not be guilty of sin. But since you claim you can see,’ your guilt remains.”

Any thoughts on those who've never heard?
 

welderguy

Senior Member
I think you are grasping at straws here. To hear means to have the message communicated. If the person is not physically able to have any communication, then that is Gods issue to judge. Would that fall under the age of accountability? If they never reached a mental age to understand, then they wouldn't be held responsible.

Where does this "age of accountability" notion come from in scripture?
What age is it when a person suddenly becomes a certified sinner?
 

welderguy

Senior Member
When did the blind and deaf not have ways of communication?

Funny you should ask that. Remember Helen Keller?
When she finally learned communication, she told her teacher she knew of God already, she just didn't know His name until they told her.
 

NE GA Pappy

Mr. Pappy
Where does this "age of accountability" notion come from in scripture?
What age is it when a person suddenly becomes a certified sinner?

We are certified sinners at conception. It is something we inherit from the first Adam. But God is gracious to the young and not capable of understanding, even though they are guilty of sin. The Jews held the age of 12 as the age when they became responsible for their own sins, but I don't believe there is a set age. We all have different levels of understanding.

The Bible refers to the children sacrificed to Molech as the "innocents". How could they be innocent if they were born guilty of sin?

The Bible also speaks of the entire family being saved by the faith of the father. Does it make sense that the belief and faith of the father would be counted as righteousness for his young children? I don't really understand that, but yet that is what the Bible seems to imply. It also seems the children were held accountable for the sins of their fathers. When rebellion was found in the ranks of the Israelites, God destroyed the entire family in an earthquake. Men, women, children, tent, possessions... everything.

Why were these children doomed because of the sins of their fathers?
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Funny you should ask that. Remember Helen Keller?
When she finally learned communication, she told her teacher she knew of God already, she just didn't know His name until they told her.

It's a shame she wasn't Christian.
 

M80

Useles Billy’s Spiritual Counselor
It's all about the condition of the heart. Romans 10 says for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Believing isn't speaking. Believing your condition and realizing jesus is the only way one believes and repents from the heart. What happens on the inside is revealed on the outside. First thing I did when the Lord saved me is told everyone what the Lord had did for me.
 

hummerpoo

Gone but not forgotten
I would think that the sequence would be different to salvation.

1. hearing the message

2. realizing the truth of the message

3. realizing the error of your ways

4. believing that a change is needed

5. a decision to make the changes

6. becoming a follower

God gets lost when the focus is on men.
It's called legalism.

Romans 10:20
And Isaiah boldly says, "I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."

John 8:47
Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

It's all about the condition of the heart. Romans 10 says for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Believing isn't speaking. Believing your condition and realizing jesus is the only way one believes and repents from the heart. What happens on the inside is revealed on the outside. First thing I did when the Lord saved me is told everyone what the Lord had did for me.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
It seems that I have learned that the whole point of the Jewish cult was that it would stand as a testimony to God for the whole world to know righteousness. That is everything sinful would be evident to man from God's righteousness which flowed out of His love for His people.

Him that freed the captives and fought for them and fed them mana when they had no wits or means of their own to feed themselves, and who directed them so they would not wonder aimlessly did all of this because He loved them and not because they were righteous. In fact He says they were not righteous at all but stiffnecked and that they would not even keep the Promised land He gave them because they were NOT a righteous people.

Now if Christianity or Judaism somehow stops witnessing the righteousness of God, which proceeds from His love then they have lost guidance.


So I understand that sin is pointed out to children from the time that " If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin."

And therefore everything that proceeds out of the word of God which is everything including all of creation witnesses of God's righteousness . So sin is pointed out by the word of God itself ( by scripture and the cult), but also by his mana. That is man lives not only on the word alone but also on everything which proceeds from His word-- .So also a witness to God's righteousness need not be only the word itself, but that which man needs both in manners and substance to feed, dress and house himself and live. ( I understand that this is the lesson of mana.)

And I understand that there is a difference in sin ( the act) and the consequences of sin. All suffer the consequences of sin be they our sins or those of others which we are not personally guilty of be they our father's sins or our children's. Therefore children can be innocent of sin yet they suffer the consequences of other's sins.

The Hebrews who had refused their faith to God when they had not followed His will and manner for them to go initially into the Promised Land, never went there, not even Moses. But their children did, but not as children. So they suffered for their parents sin though they were accounted as innocent in that they wondered for many yrs yet could had been to their rest as babes had their parent's not doubted God's love and Him doing the right thing.
 
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Vectorman

Senior Member
It also seems the children were held accountable for the sins of their fathers. When rebellion was found in the ranks of the Israelites, God destroyed the entire family in an earthquake. Men, women, children, tent, possessions... everything.

Why were these children doomed because of the sins of their fathers?

It is a difficult verse to understand why God would destroy the children along with the rebellious parents.

The destruction of Korah and his family and children is another example of the Lord purging evil and rebellion from Israel. It's not easy to understand but like many things we have to trust Him to know what He's doing.

Same thing when God commanded Israel to kill all the canaannites, men, women, children. But this was actually an act of mercy for Israel's children because God knew that the canaanites would teach Israel to worship idols and to sacrifice their children which Israel did.
 

Israel

BANNED
Sin ricochets.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
I once read a good story. It was a story about trying to help a people, by helping businesses ( local economies), but it ended in the loss of all that was created, which the people created for themselves while thinking they were helping themselves.

I forget if it was Bangladesh or Pakistan, but apparently lots of international funds ( investment capital) went into their economy at one point. And the receiving businesses and the people who were industrious did thrive and grew and gave jobs to more people and the all the people grew richer.

This led to new infrastructure, new commercial and residential development, new schools, new clinics etc. Developers bought and traded new land, leveled old construction and built anew. Towns and communities prospered and individuals prospered.

And then one yr great rains came and levies broke and old riverbeds unknown to the eager developers were flooded and the towns and villages, with their businesses, infrastructure and prosperity, they all flowed down to the sea taking some of the people also in uncommon numbers.

I have to wonder that in their eagerness to prosper that they had forgotten they were building on old riverbeds? Or had they not cared how God sends down his rains?
 
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centerpin fan

Senior Member
It's very simple, we studied the book, not someone's interpretation off the book.

It sounds like you studied Michael Halsey's interpretation of the book. In the "A guy walks into your church" thread, you referenced his book. I looked up the book and the seminary where Halsey teaches. Here's part of the doctrinal statement from the seminary:

No act of obedience (other than faith in Christ), whether preceding or following faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, such as commitment or willingness to obey, sorrow for sin, turning from sin, baptism, or submission to the Lordship of Christ, may be added to, or considered a part of, faith as a condition for receiving eternal salvation. The saving transaction between God and the sinner consists simply of the giving and receiving of a free gift that is without cost to the believer (John 4:10; Romans 4:5; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8–9; Titus 3:5; Revelation 22:17 ).

http://www.gracebiblicalseminary.org/about-us/our-doctrinal-beliefs/

This sounds very similar to what you said here and in other threads. Is your Bible study group the source of these teachings, or is it Halsey?
 

SemperFiDawg

Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
It is the saddest reality of modern organized religion. You are to be kept in line. Limited in knowledge, and never question certain things.

Not sure how you fault ANY church if the individual members are too lazy to read the Bible. You follow a recipe for making your supper yet you take someone's word when it comes the most important question in your life.
 

SemperFiDawg

Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
Vectoman. After reading this thread I'm convinced you have been terribly misled, and quiet possibly educated into foolishness. I would respectfully suggest you forget what you have learned, especially regarding separate gospels and repentance.
 
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hobbs27

Senior Member
Not sure how you fault ANY church if the individual members are too lazy to read the Bible. You follow a recipe for making your supper yet you take someone's word when it comes the most important question in your life.

The problem I see is denominational stances.

In the cOC you must be water baptized or you are not saved.

In some cOG you must speak in tongues or you are not saved.

In some Baptist churches you must have an experience of grace in others you just quote a prayer or raise a hand.


As members question these teachings of the church they are in, and probably grown up in with family members, it doesn't matter the scriptural support that they may present. The denominations are set in their belief and anyone questioning that is rebuked and possibly disfellowshipped.
 

Vectorman

Senior Member
It sounds like you studied Michael Halsey's interpretation of the book. In the "A guy walks into your church" thread, you referenced his book. I looked up the book and the seminary where Halsey teaches. Here's part of the doctrinal statement from the seminary:

No act of obedience (other than faith in Christ), whether preceding or following faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, such as commitment or willingness to obey, sorrow for sin, turning from sin, baptism, or submission to the Lordship of Christ, may be added to, or considered a part of, faith as a condition for receiving eternal salvation. The saving transaction between God and the sinner consists simply of the giving and receiving of a free gift that is without cost to the believer (John 4:10; Romans 4:5; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8–9; Titus 3:5; Revelation 22:17 ).

http://www.gracebiblicalseminary.org/about-us/our-doctrinal-beliefs/

This sounds very similar to what you said here and in other threads. Is your Bible study group the source of these teachings, or is it Halsey?

It is both and many others but you never take anybody's word for truth, you always check what they say with scripture to see if they are speaking truth or not. I don't agree with everything than anybody teaches. But, now that you posted it, I do agree with the Doctrinal Statement of the grace biblical seminary 100%. It is very simple, faith alone on Christ alone. Anything beyond that is an attempt to work your way into heaven.
 

centerpin fan

Senior Member
It is both and many others but you never take anybody's word for truth, you always check what they say with scripture to see if they are speaking truth or not. I don't agree with everything than anybody teaches. But, now that you posted it, I do agree with the Doctrinal Statement of the grace biblical seminary 100%. It is very simple, faith alone on Christ alone. Anything beyond that is an attempt to work your way into heaven.

Do you go to Halsey's church?
 
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