Kingdom of heaven.

hobbs27

Senior Member
Off topic a bit but explain this;

Colossians 3:4
When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

If we are in the Kingdom of God, why is there so much scripture that talks about a secret of what we will be when Christ returns?

I didn't get to see Christ when he came in 70AD. I didn't get to become as he is. I feel as if I missed something.

This group was under persecution by apostate Israel. Out numbered and criticized for their belief that Jesus was the Messiah.
They knew when Jesus returned in judgment that the destruction of the temple would be proof of His Lordship 1Tim 6:14-15

The tribes that had rejected Him and crucified Him would see that coming ( Rev. 1:7: Matt. 26:64. The disciples knew that when Christ did appear in power and glory that they would appear also with Him.

His manifestation would be their manifestation and His glory their glory.
They would be vindicated.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Is it something along these lines. Today there is the Kingdom of God on earth as it is in Heaven. This is a spiritual kingdom. It resides along with a physical, evil fleshy kingdom.
We are born into this evil kingdom. When we are born again, we are born into the spiritual kingdom.

Therefore all of the passages of evil that can't enter the Kingdom are physical. Since we are in the new spiritual Kingdom, evil doesn't and can't exist.

I think its like this. We are born in His care, but at some time when we knowingly do immoral things we walk away from His care , yet the Spirit calls us back to Him, to take of the water of life. And if we commit to this, enter in through the gates and take of the water freely given to whosoever will, then we are in union with God and our sin is covered ..just waiting to leave this flesh behind.

But thats a totally different discussion.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
I think its like this. We are born in His care, but at some time when we knowingly do immoral things we walk away from His care , yet the Spirit calls us back to Him, to take of the water of life. And if we commit to this, enter in through the gates and take of the water freely given to whosoever will, then we are in union with God and our sin is covered ..just waiting to leave this flesh behind.

But thats a totally different discussion.

Not really as it concerns evil and the Kingdom.

"I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Not really as it concerns evil and the Kingdom.

"I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

So do you think evil is in the new covenant kingdom?
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
So do you think evil is in the new covenant kingdom?

No but I can find verses that appear to be warnings such as the one mentioned from Galatians 5:21.

Maybe it's a warning to non-Christians. The only thing I got going for me personally is "and such were some of you but you were washed."

Beyond this when we start comparing each other's sin lists that keep one out of the Kingdom, we always exclude ourselves.
We'd better hope it's all about grace otherwise there is no hope.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The kingdom of God taken from old covenant Israel and given to another people.

Agree?


Ok... the You here never stopped existing after the kingdom of God was taken away. So the kingdom here and the you are two objects separate from one the other.

If the Kingdom of God was taken from Israel and Israel still exists as a people, then the Kingdom is something other than Israel or the people. So Old Covenant Israel was not, never was, the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom was something they possessed... In other words God walked with them and they had no need to test God.
 
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gordon 2

Senior Member
So the kingdom of God that was old covenant Israel being a physical land was made up of good and bad people.

But the new covenant kingdom of God as we have already established is made up only of righteous.

See where Im going? This is exciting stuff I saw in Gods word last night.

The parable of the wheat and tares. It must be about old covenant Israel and its demise because tares do not grow with wheat in the new covenant kingdom. :banana:

Quote(So the kingdom of God that was old covenant Israel being a physical land was made up of good and bad people.) end quote.

Is this not a long jump conclusion... Was the Kingdom of God old covenant Isreal? Really? The Kingdom of God changes?
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
No but I can find verses that appear to be warnings such as the one mentioned from Galatians 5:21.

Maybe it's a warning to non-Christians. The only thing I got going for me personally is "and such were some of you but you were washed."

Beyond this when we start comparing each other's sin lists that keep one out of the Kingdom, we always exclude ourselves.
We'd better hope it's all about grace otherwise there is no hope.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

It was a warning to those that were about to inherit the Kingdom...it was being taken from the Nation of Israel and given to a people that would produce fruit.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit."

They had to possess it in order to have it taken.

But only until the full number of Gentiles has come in. Then the natural branches can be grafted back in.

"Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious."

Romans 11:25-26
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Quote(So the kingdom of God that was old covenant Israel being a physical land was made up of good and bad people.) end quote.

Is this not a long jump conclusion... Was the Kingdom of God old covenant Isreal? Really? The Kingdom of God changes?

In light of matt. 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.

It changed hands, I dont think anyone will say it still belongs to national israel, especially since National israel failed to exist for about 2k years up to 1948.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
So the harvest parable in Matthew 13 parallels with the harvest in Rev. 14 and both are concerning the harvest that took place the year after 69ad.

Which is the taking away of the kingdom from Israel and giving to a new nation.
 
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Artfuldodger

Senior Member
I think that we must reconcile Matthew 21:43 with Romans 11.
In Matthews Jesus said the kingdom of God was taken away from Israel because of her unbelief and rejection of the Messiah. Israel was/is in a state of hardening as presented in Romans 11.
One day this hardening will be removed as described in Romans 11.

This is from Acts 1;
6So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Israel will one day enjoy the covenant blessings of a God who is faithful to keep His promises. This is also mentioned in Romans.

If national Israel has vanished, how do we expect to be grafted in? How can we become heirs to the commonwealth of Israel?

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world

"At that time" Doest that point to a recent past time for them?

There is a a period of time known by theologians as ( the already but not yet). Futurist believe we are still in this time of already but not yet... I think it was in this time we read of between the annointing of Christ in Baptism and the destruction of temple.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
That's a good explanation of Ephesians 2:12, what about Romans 11 describing the blindness of Israel until the full number of Gentiles has came in? The grafting in of Gentiles into Israel?
And in this way all Israel will be saved? And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins?

Romans 11:28-29
28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

Explain how we are grafted into an Israel that no longer exists.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
That's a good explanation of Ephesians 2:12, what about Romans 11 describing the blindness of Israel until the full number of Gentiles has came in? The grafting in of Gentiles into Israel?
And in this way all Israel will be saved? And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins?

Romans 11:28-29
28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

Explain how we are grafted into an Israel that no longer exists.

Art, the time was fast approaching for the harvest to take place. The gentiles started receiving the Holy Spirit and the kingdom. This should have opened the eyes of the blind...thats what it was designed to do, so all Israel would be saved..the elect.. Not all that were in Israel were Israel...but all Israel was going to be saved before the fast approaching harvest. The unrighteous were separated from the elect...the wheat and tares...the sheep and goats..it was a cleansing of Gods kingdom.

Read these verses in my TKB version.

25. For I would not , brothers, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, unless you should be wise in your own conceits : that blindness from part of Israel has happened, until the fullness of the nations have entered: 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved: as it is written, there will come out of Zion the Deliverer, and will turn away ungodliness from Jacob:27 for this is My covenant to them, when I will take away their sins.28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as concerning the election, they are beloved for the Father's sake.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Art, the time was fast approaching for the harvest to take place. The gentiles started receiving the Holy Spirit and the kingdom. This should have opened the eyes of the blind...thats what it was designed to do, so all Israel would be saved..the elect.. Not all that were in Israel were Israel...but all Israel was going to be saved before the fast approaching harvest. The unrighteous were separated from the elect...the wheat and tares...the sheep and goats..it was a cleansing of Gods kingdom.

Read these verses in my TKB version.

25. For I would not , brothers, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, unless you should be wise in your own conceits : that blindness from part of Israel has happened, until the fullness of the nations have entered: 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved: as it is written, there will come out of Zion the Deliverer, and will turn away ungodliness from Jacob:27 for this is My covenant to them, when I will take away their sins.28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as concerning the election, they are beloved for the Father's sake.

Then 70AD was just the start of the harvest. It can't be a one time event as the wheat is continuously being planted and harvested.
We still have the Wheat and Tares to this day. We still have evil outside the gates.

Do we as Christians go back and forth through these gates of the Kingdom to sometimes experience evil? If there is no evil in the Kingdom, we must.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Ok... the You here never stopped existing after the kingdom of God was taken away. So the kingdom here and the you are two objects separate from one the other.

If the Kingdom of God was taken from Israel and Israel still exists as a people, then the Kingdom is something other than Israel or the people. So Old Covenant Israel was not, never was, the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom was something they possessed... In other words God walked with them and they had no need to test God.

I dont believe Israel exists as a people. They're mostly european decent now, Rabbinic Judaism is a made up religion out of the ashes of the temple. But I agree they were not the Kingdom but possessed it. It was a gift..the Land was part of their covenant with God..God took that from them.
The Kingdom now reigns over the entire earth, knowing no boundaries, and no races.
Any man in any nation or even on the moon can receive the kingdom of God.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Read these verses in my TKB version.

25. For I would not , brothers, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, unless you should be wise in your own conceits : that blindness from part of Israel has happened, until the fullness of the nations have entered: 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved: as it is written, there will come out of Zion the Deliverer, and will turn away ungodliness from Jacob:27 for this is My covenant to them, when I will take away their sins.28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as concerning the election, they are beloved for the Father's sake.

What about the "mystery?" You are saying the blindness is over and in this way "all Israel was saved." That Jesus removed all Godliness from Zion. This being a new spiritual Zion.
What was the mystery? That physical Zion "changed" into a spiritual Zion? That the Gentiles were grafted into a Spiritual Commonwealth of Israel?

Let's move on in Romans 11;
27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.” 28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

Which Israel is this talking about? The one that regarding the gospel, they are enemies on our account but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs? What is God's connection to Israel as it concerns the irrevocable call and gifts in relation to this mystery?
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
How does this tie into the mystery that started in 70AD;

30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all.33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!

Why include all of this if it wasn't part of the mystery that we'd have trouble understanding?
God choosing a remnant and hardening the rest of Israel until the full number of Gentiles were grafted in. This to make physical Israel jealous. Then lifting the hardening. Us not being ignorant of this mystery. Then following that with a passage of their disobedience being orchestrated to "allow" us to be grafted in. The mystery that God's gifts and His call are irrevocable.
The mystery that we who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience. The mystery that they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.

The mystery that God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all. Wow talk about a mystery. Paul knew we wouldn't understand this. That is the reason he followed with this passage about physical Israel's disobedience to allow us salvation.
He follows with;
33O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways! 34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?”

Why would Paul go so far as to include that?
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Then 70AD was just the start of the harvest. It can't be a one time event as the wheat is continuously being planted and harvested.
We still have the Wheat and Tares to this day. We still have evil outside the gates.

Do we as Christians go back and forth through these gates of the Kingdom to sometimes experience evil? If there is no evil in the Kingdom, we must.


The kingdom is here..this is about living on earth in the kingdom , not about the after life.

It was a one time deal for Israel. Its time was over, the harvest was made and the righteous out of her inherited the new covenant kingdom...as Gordon said, they walked with God.
 
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