Corps Of Engineers carry ban under review

The USACOE has their carry ban on weapons under review now. Thanks partly to an executive order from Trump that federal agencies look into ways of making life better for Americans.

Everyone, please go to this website and add your comments. Please be polite and respectful, yet firm:

https://www.regulations.gov/comment?D=COE-2017-0004-0001

Also, GeorgiaCarry.org has a part in this. They are the ones to thank for our now decent carry laws, which were terrible not too long ago. The best $21 you could ever spend.

From what every game warden in SC I have asked has told me (several,) you can carry on COE property and lakes in SC if you have a CCP.

I never knew this was an issue? But according to some stuff I just looked up and read, as long as you are in line with the particular state laws where the COE property is, its not a problem, as in Georgia, you could carry either concealed or open, in other states if they don't have open carry, then you would need to carry concealed. I'm not sure I feel good about just anyone carrying around lakes and waterways, given the propensity of some of those alcohol abusing bozos ,,, ?

Is is not technically legal at all on COE land, unless it is a hunting area and they happen to allow firearms there.

Rangers probably use the better part of discretion and look the other way, but it most definitely is not legal.

Hence the reason it is up for review and comment.

Please help us with a cite to the law or regulation that says that the rules on COE property follow the law of the host state.

My understanding is that the COE is considering a change of it's regulation to this in light of Pres. Trump's directive to relieve the people of oppressive and unnecessary regulation but I have seen no final adoption of it yet.

I believe that the regulation at 36 C.F.R. § 327.13 still controls. It states:

(a) The possession of loaded firearms, ammunition, loaded projectile firing devices, bows and arrows, crossbows, or other weapons is prohibited unless:

(1) In the possession of a Federal, state or local law enforcement officer;

(2) Being used for hunting or fishing as permitted under § 327.8, with devices being unloaded when transported to, from or between hunting and fishing sites;

(3) Being used at authorized shooting ranges; or

(4) Written permission has been received from the District Commander.

(b) Possession of explosives or explosive devices of any kind, including fireworks or other pyrotechnics, is prohibited unless written permission has been received from the District Commander.

There was a fed court case about this a few years ago. I think at the ?federal district?appeals? Level.

I recall that where challenged, that they went with state carry in the district's where the cases were.

I ain't a lawyer.

This was from the district where Idaho is.

Several other hits along the same search.

So maybe the feedback of don't violate my 2a is sufficient. At least according to one district court judge.

http://www.guns.com/2014/10/17/court-tells-corps-of-engineers-to-allow-guns-on-property/

There is a case still in court. I don't recall the details, but I'm pretty sure it is still active.

I wasn't aware until a few years ago that carry, etc. was illegal on COE land. Heck, as a kid, we would always go up to Allatoona in the fall and winter when the water was down, and go target shooting. We didn't know any better. But that was way before Al Gore "invented the internet".

But like I said, and JustUs4All confirmed with cited law, carry on COE land is still quite illegal. With a little help, that might be rectified before too long.

Did a little more reading, other districts were hearing similar cases and the COE requested the cases ?paused? In favor of mediation.

I guess they were worried about a precedent being firmly established.

The problem is that if another administration comes alone with and A2A agenda any change now could be nullified or undone later.

Dont know about any of the legal stuff, but there is a Sign at the McKinney boat ramp with a Picture of a pistol and a NO Circle ON it.......and it say No Firearms.

It wasn't there a few years ago and it needs to come down.........I hate feeling like I am breaking the law when I go fishing

bfriendly said:

Dont know about any of the legal stuff, but there is a Sign at the McKinney boat ramp with a Picture of a pistol and a NO Circle ON it.......and it say No Firearms.

It wasn't there a few years ago and it needs to come down.........I hate feeling like I am breaking the law when I go fishing

Click to expand...

Yep. The sign itself doesn't make it illegal in GA, but the law behind the sign is what counts. You don't see signs like that very often on Corps land, and I don't think game wardens or rangers (who are few and far between) go looking to see if people are carrying, but I don't want to test them.

The firearms regulation that Justus4all quoted is current and in force at all USACOE lakes nationwide. If you are told otherwise it simply isn't true. The reason there may be confusion is it is rarely enforced except in aggravated situations. As a now retired COE ranger who worked on the COE's busiest lake for over 30 years I had plenty of opportunities to enforce the firearm regulation. One thing you have to understand is the COE has always had a low key enforcement program. That is how its Park Rangers have always been trained and what is expected by the agency. In serious situations they most always are accompanied by a deputy. Most people don't know that COE rangers are not armed and never have been except when deployed in certain roles to overseas war zones. They will never be armed in the United States as the agency has no desire to do so because of the liability, cost and more intense management requirements. On the other hand both the NPS and USFS have a long history of having armed rangers.

The times I did enforce the firearm regulation was in situations involving drunks, fights, drug deals, assaults or other public disturbances in the parks. Usually by offenders who didn't deserve to be around decent folks and yes even a few with cc permits. In any situation the ranger has the latitude to verbally warn, issue a written warning or issue a citation requiring a court appearance in District Court. Far...far more warnings are issued than citations.

IMO the COE at the headquarters level in D.C. is pretty much split on the firearms carry issue. Most there agree that there is a need to prohibit firearms around critical operational areas at the lakes such as dams, powerhouses, locks, maintenance and lake offices where there are government personnel working and extensive Dept. of Army security requirements in play. Some hold the belief that firearms have no place in a park or recreational setting from a public safety standpoint and don't want the rangers working where firearms are permitted. Other's don't have a problem with it since the NPS and USFS allow firearm carry in most all of their recreation areas nationwide. So we will have to see how it goes. The lawsuits in several parts of the country will probably keep the COE from kicking the can down the road much further.

^^ Thank you very much for that very comprehensive explanation, natureman. Very much in line with my impression all along.

The very few times I have interacted with rangers or game wardens, it has always been a pleasant experience and they always seemed very reasonable and polite.

it was explained to me once in this way...USACOE land is pretty much like any other Federal Building and Federal laws apply not state... Federal Buildings have a none carry policy even if it doesn't have a metal detector.

Federal lands have one of 3 types of jurisdiction; exclusive, concurrent or proprietary. COE lake projects have proprietary which means "The United States has no legislative jurisdiction or measure of the State's authority over Federal land, but exercises all the rights of a property owner. The United States, however, has certain other constitutional powers that a private individual does not hold. Congress has delegated a measure of that constitutional authority to the COE to make and enforce regulations (36 C.F.R.) of which the firearms prohibition is a a part. Violation of these regulations is a petty offense. A State may exercise its legislative jurisdiction (police power) over the acts of private persons in park areas to the same extent as on privately owned lands."

Of course there is an assortment of other Federal Codes that apply on COE property such as Title 18 misdemeanors and so on. On a higher level the FBI and Army CID may take the lead in significant criminal investigations of federal property thefts, employee and contractor criminal activity as well as terrorism. At COE lakes you will usually find a well developed working relationship between the Park Ranger Division and local and state law enforcement agencies. In many instances these agencies enforce some of the same regulations or codes for safe boating, vehicle operation, disorderly conduct etc. As an example on Lake Lanier an individual could get a ticket for not wearing a PFD on a personal watercraft from DNR, the county Sheriff or the COE.

natureman said:

Federal lands have 3 types of jurisdiction exclusive, concurrent or proprietary. COE lake projects have proprietary which means "The United States has no legislative jurisdiction or measure of the State's authority over Federal land, but exercises all the rights of a property owner. The United States, however, has certain other constitutional powers that a private individual does not hold. Congress has delegated a measure of that constitutional authority to the COE to make and enforce regulations (36 C.F.R.) of which the firearms prohibition is a a part. Violation of these regulations is a petty offense. A State may exercise its legislative jurisdiction (police power) over the acts of private persons in park areas to the same extent as on privately owned lands."

Of course there is an assortment of other Federal Codes that apply on COE property such as Title 18 misdemeanors and so on. On a higher level the FBI and Army CID take the lead in significant federal property thefts, employee and contractor criminal activity as well as terrorism. At COE lakes you will usually find a well developed working relationship between the Park Ranger Division and local and state law enforcement agencies. In many instances these agencies enforce the same regulations or codes for safe boating, vehicle operation, disorderly conduct etc. As an example on Lake Lanier an individual could get a ticket for not wearing a PFD on a personal watercraft from DNR, the county Sheriff or the COE.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the further clarification natureman. It was enlightening, both in education and confirmation.

y'all be careful

you gonna rile up all them "we can carry anywhere folks".....

They don't believe in signs or laws or private property or anything else.....

s&r

And some people just believe in not getting caught. They put their right to keep on staying alive ahead of other people's feelings or preferences. Or so I've heard.

But not worrying is a good thing, too.