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Old 06-18-2017, 09:51 PM
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Default Pretty stinging indictment on the Church in America

I'm not apologetic on my stance on tithing. I feel God is giving you 100% of what you earn and expects only 10% back. I also feel it's a SIN not to give at least 10% of GROSS. All across the country Churches are losing members. I feel this article may offer a partial answer as to why. We as a country are so wealth our poor are considered wealthy throughout the world, yet we in the Church give so very little to alleviate suffering and spread the gospel. We will have to answer for that discrepancy one day. Make no mistake about it.

https://relevantmagazine.com/god/chu...-church-tithed

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Old 06-18-2017, 10:14 PM
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If the church was doing what it should be doing, the government would not have to have the social and food programs it has now. We are sadly lacking, not only in tithing, but compassion and ultimately in loving others as we love ourselves.

Christ said that is the 2nd greatest law, like the first. Love the Lord God with all your heart, all your mind and with all your soul.
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:36 AM
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I agree with NE GA Pappy, only I look at it from a different angle. I don't think the govt has to have feeding and welfare programs, but the govt wants them. Especially the leftist , to help sway votes. It works like this:

Dear poor person, you are poor, always will be. You cannot survive on your own because you are a victim of the wealthy. The wealthy are supported by Conservatives.. The Liberals are here to help you.. Vote for us, so we can continue to support you.

The fact is. The USA is the most charitable nation in the world. Not a single person reading this would allow their neighbor to starve. If the church as a whole wants more money, it needs to be helping more at home, get people off welfare, help in the health care crisis, homes for our veterans, mental health help for our veterans. ..Do something here, where those giving can see it. Put the govt out of the welfare business.

The article says with people tithing ( not the biblical definition of tithing) , but giving ten percent of wages to the church, that the church can solve problems in foreign countries... I doubt it. 3rd world nations and it's corrupt governments will not allow it. It's just wasted money for the most part.
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by NE GA Pappy View Post
If the church was doing what it should be doing, the government would not have to have the social and food programs it has now.
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Originally Posted by NE GA Pappy View Post
We are sadly lacking, not only in tithing, but compassion and ultimately in loving others as we love ourselves.

Christ said that is the 2nd greatest law, like the first. Love the Lord God with all your heart, all your mind and with all your soul.
Can someone explain what is/are for most Christians the traditional rock bottom sources of what the church should do and what government should do? Is it fixed? If it can change why?
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:07 AM
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I agree with the author when he says
Quote:
The truth is: Giving is a heart issue, not a money issue.
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:17 AM
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... the Vatican bank reportedly has holdings of over eight billion dollars. These other churches don't seem so broke either. What about the rest of them?
It seems to me that they could easily accomplish some of the things on the list in the article if they cared too....
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:17 AM
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I agree with the author when he says
Ok got it. The heart is the motivator for giving according to the author. So it follows that the church does not have a heart for the poor, or to remedy the causes of poverty, otherwise it would tithe more than it does?

Is this the indictment?
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:47 AM
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Ok got it. The heart is the motivator for giving according to the author. So it follows that the church does not have a heart for the poor, or to remedy the causes of poverty, otherwise it would tithe more than it does?

Is this the indictment?
Is it not? I feel it is.
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:54 AM
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Malachi 3

Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me.

“But you ask, ‘How are we robbing you?’

“In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—your whole nation—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not drop their fruit before it is ripe,” says the Lord Almighty. 12 “Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land,” says the Lord Almighty.
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Old 06-19-2017, 09:43 AM
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Brother Durden explains the problem that has crept into the church:


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Old 06-19-2017, 10:14 AM
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There is a reason I don't give money to the church. It's because most organized branches of the church have become self-serving institutions defined by their accumulation of money for the sake of accumulating money.

I worked for about five years for a major denomination of the church, at a posh retreat they own for their leaders. I have never seen so much spiteful, dirty, conniving politics and power madness and greed as I saw at that place. It is corrupt to the core. I never saw any money going to any kind of helping the community or the sick or the poor, but they didn't bat an eye at spending tens of millions to build luxurious hotels, work on the dam for the huge private lake, or for landscaping and beautification of the retreat. That money came from the pockets of the individual church members. I often found myself wondering, why does the church have any business having hundreds of millions in capital; and if they do, why don't they use it on something besides a fancy retreat for their clergy and administrators?

Most of the charity within the community I have seen from the church has come from small, unaffiliated country churches that are active in their communities. Most bigger churches will turn you upside down and shake the money out of your pockets when you walk in the door, but they always seem to spend all that on making the building bigger and fancier, renovating it, hiring more administrators, and such. And not a year goes by without a couple good scandals locally of some church employee or officer embezzling money-often using it for wicked things.

If I wanted to give money to the less fortunate, I would give it directly to them instead of funneling it through the middleman of the church. Why? I don't trust them with it, and I am definitely not alone. Religion and money have became synonymous in many denominations and congregations. Sadly, the local church is trying to catch up with the TV evangelists in greed and money grabbing, seems like. If they would do good work with it, it would be a good thing. But they usually don't. The greed of the church and lust for and focus on money is one main reason that so many don't want anything to do with it.
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by NCHillbilly View Post
There is a reason I don't give money to the church. It's because most organized branches of the church have become self-serving institutions defined by their accumulation of money for the sake of accumulating money.

I worked for about five years for a major denomination of the church, at a posh retreat they own for their leaders. I have never seen so much spiteful, dirty, conniving politics and power madness and greed as I saw at that place. It is corrupt to the core. I never saw any money going to any kind of helping the community or the sick or the poor, but they didn't bat an eye at spending tens of millions to build luxurious hotels, work on the dam for the huge private lake, or for landscaping and beautification of the retreat. That money came from the pockets of the individual church members. I often found myself wondering, why does the church have any business having hundreds of millions in capital; and if they do, why don't they use it on something besides a fancy retreat for their clergy and administrators?

Most of the charity within the community I have seen from the church has come from small, unaffiliated country churches that are active in their communities. Most bigger churches will turn you upside down and shake the money out of your pockets when you walk in the door, but they always seem to spend all that on making the building bigger and fancier, renovating it, hiring more administrators, and such. And not a year goes by without a couple good scandals locally of some church employee or officer embezzling money-often using it for wicked things.

If I wanted to give money to the less fortunate, I would give it directly to them instead of funneling it through the middleman of the church. Why? I don't trust them with it, and I am definitely not alone. Religion and money have became synonymous in many denominations and congregations. Sadly, the local church is trying to catch up with the TV evangelists in greed and money grabbing, seems like. If they would do good work with it, it would be a good thing. But they usually don't. The greed of the church and lust for and focus on money is one main reason that so many don't want anything to do with it.
Sadly I've seen it too. Was once in a church and the pastor had everyone bring their wallets and purses to the front, place them in a pile and pray over them. I walked out and didn't go back.

On the flip side of that is the church I'm in now and have been a member of for the last 16 or so years. Every dollar that comes in goes back out to missions of some type. The goal is to have absolutely no money in savings. We've lived with that goal for 16 years now and seen an almost unheard of growth during that time. You can't hold on to the money that comes in or use it on yourselves past paying for necessities. Use it to help those in need and store up your treasure in Heaven. Personally I think that applies equally to the Church and the individual. As an aside, a collective body can through sheer volume, often meet needs that anyone other than a wealthy individual couldn't, but if the Church was hoarding it, I wouldn't give. That would be a neon sign that I needed to find another church
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:42 AM
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On the flip side of that is the church I'm in now and have been a member of for the last 16 or so years. Every dollar that comes in goes back out to missions of some type. The goal is to have absolutely no money in savings. We've lived with that goal for 16 years now and seen an almost unheard of growth during that time. You can't hold on to the money that comes in or use it on yourselves past paying for necessities. Use it to help those in need and store up your treasure in Heaven. Personally I think that applies equally to the Church and the individual.
Do you guys have a building? I'm just curious because that's where so many churches tie up all their money.
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Old 06-19-2017, 11:05 AM
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Yes. We are a very rural old country church that went through a split in 2001-2002. We were left with 12 members. We now have over 700 of which about 400 attend each Sunday so we had to build on a couple of times. In both instances members volunteered their time and resources leaving very little to be financed allowing us to keep all our financial resources going out to missions. It's a very welcoming atmosphere. You want to wear a hat, grow your hair long, come in in shorts or jeans, come on. I wear overalls every Sunday with a tee shirt. During deer season everyone is expected to hunt Sunday morning and come in with your camo on. Call it Camo Sundays.
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Old 06-19-2017, 11:12 AM
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... the Vatican bank reportedly has holdings of over eight billion dollars. These other churches don't seem so broke either. What about the rest of them?
It seems to me that they could easily accomplish some of the things on the list in the article if they cared too....
Can't put a price tag on The Catholic Church.
And.. It's the most charitable organization the world has ever known.
Keep in mind, USA goober*ment was not in the charity business until
the 20th century.

Most all the artifacts and ECW's writings can not be bought. The basis for most "forms" of Christianity.

After all, It IS the church, founded by Christ Himself.

Footnote:

I'm not rich or poor. Liquid, not a lot, paper, assets that can go liquid fast, Im good.
What I put in the plate
is what I can do. Sometimes it's a lot, sometimes
it's only a few bucks.

I don't follow the 10% deal. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

AND I'm a hard right CONSERVATIVE, I worked for every dime except when my parents helped me out as a kid.
Co-signing loans, helping me build my credit at the age of 15. I'm pushing 54 now as of November.

So, any church that can't stand on it's own don't need subsidies from me.
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Old 06-19-2017, 11:34 AM
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In servitude it is clear that the "Church" should spread the word of God to all corners of the earth.

In practice, where the American Church is concerned, they must first remove the plank from their eye before they go abroad to remove the splinter (tell others of God.)

Our country is loaded with starving and homeless people, and as was mentioned before, were the Church to have it's heart in the right place (both corporately and congregationally) then there would be no affirmative action programs for the government to fund, and the "Church" would have more resources to do God's work here and abroad than they knew what to do with.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
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Sadly I've seen it too. Was once in a church and the pastor had everyone bring their wallets and purses to the front, place them in a pile and pray over them. I walked out and didn't go back.

On the flip side of that is the church I'm in now and have been a member of for the last 16 or so years. Every dollar that comes in goes back out to missions of some type. The goal is to have absolutely no money in savings. We've lived with that goal for 16 years now and seen an almost unheard of growth during that time. You can't hold on to the money that comes in or use it on yourselves past paying for necessities. Use it to help those in need and store up your treasure in Heaven. Personally I think that applies equally to the Church and the individual. As an aside, a collective body can through sheer volume, often meet needs that anyone other than a wealthy individual couldn't, but if the Church was hoarding it, I wouldn't give. That would be a neon sign that I needed to find another church
That's the way it should be. That's like the little rural churches that I grew up attending. Sadly, they are in the minority now.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:45 PM
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NCHillbilly...
Does this look familiar to you? Probably spent more Sundays in this little (Rockwood Methodist) church than in all others combined...
Grandpa mowed the lawn there for years when I was little.
Still a Methodist at heart. I believe you will get to where you need to be according to the 'method' in which you live your life.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:50 PM
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Edit to add pic...
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:53 PM
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I believe you will get to where you need to be according to the 'method' in which you live your life.
Sigline material right there.
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Old 06-19-2017, 01:02 PM
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... and on my dad's side of the family, on family land with family name...
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Old 06-20-2017, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1eyefishing View Post
NCHillbilly...
Does this look familiar to you? Probably spent more Sundays in this little (Rockwood Methodist) church than in all others combined...
Grandpa mowed the lawn there for years when I was little.
Still a Methodist at heart. I believe you will get to where you need to be according to the 'method' in which you live your life.
About fifteen minutes from where I live. I recognized the pic.

Edit: I drove by it this afternoon.
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Old 06-20-2017, 04:29 PM
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This is what I believe. First God owns everything. Everything I have God has allowed me to have. I give my tithes to church I go to. The money is not given to the church. The money 10 per cent is given to God. Besides my tithe I also support many of the ministries our church has. We have a young lady who is a missionary for instance that my wife and I support. The money is given to God but picked up by man. If it is not used right God will take care of that. I do not worry about the giving God will take care of it. I believe that by not tithing you are missing out on many blessings from God. Just think if most people were debt free how much more money could be used for Gods word. My wife and I are debt free and all the money would have to spend on house payment, car payments, CREDIT CARDS and other material things we can now freely use to support different ministries. Just my thought. Besides I have a home waiting for me in heaven.

Steve
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Old 06-21-2017, 07:05 AM
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This is what I believe. First God owns everything. Everything I have God has allowed me to have. I give my tithes to church I go to. The money is not given to the church. The money 10 per cent is given to God. Besides my tithe I also support many of the ministries our church has. We have a young lady who is a missionary for instance that my wife and I support. The money is given to God but picked up by man. If it is not used right God will take care of that. I do not worry about the giving God will take care of it. I believe that by not tithing you are missing out on many blessings from God. Just think if most people were debt free how much more money could be used for Gods word. My wife and I are debt free and all the money would have to spend on house payment, car payments, CREDIT CARDS and other material things we can now freely use to support different ministries. Just my thought. Besides I have a home waiting for me in heaven.

Steve
All good points, BUT I do (not really worry) about where the money goes. I try to make sure it's going to where it will be used wisely. Don't really have to worry about it at my church, but if I was at a church that just spent money on itself, or tended to spend money on itself, I would worry.

Last edited by SemperFiDawg; 06-22-2017 at 06:59 AM.
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Old 06-21-2017, 11:24 AM
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Where is the tithe found in the New Testament?
Maybe I'm crazy, but I just happen to believe we will give an account of EVERY penny that passes through our hands.
Was it used to help others or further the kingdom, or was it used selfishly?
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