Hitler's Cross

SemperFiDawg

Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
I've often wondered about the psyche of the German people and specifically the Church that allowed the Holocaust to happen so I was happy to stumble upon Erwin Lutzer's book, Hitler's Cross. Reading it has answered a lot of questions I had, and despite being a historical read, much of it is being repeated today.

Two quotes that really stood out could pretty much summarize us today. The first from Bonhoeffer

"“If Evil appears in the form of light, benefit, loyalty and renewal, if it conforms with historical necessity and social justice, then this, if it is understood straightforwardly, is a clear proof of it's abysmal wickedness."

and the second from “William Shirer, in his monumental The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich,”

"“It would be misleading to give the impression that the persecution of Protestants and Catholics by the Nazi State tore the German people asunder or even greatly aroused the vast majority of them. “It did not. A people who had so lightly given up their political and cultural and economic freedoms were not, except for a relatively few, going to die or even risk imprisonment to preserve freedom of worship. “What really aroused the Germans in the Thirties were the glittering successes of Hitler in providing jobs, creating prosperity, restoring Germany’s military might, and moving from one triumph to another in his foreign policy. “Not many Germans lost much sleep over the arrests of a few thousand pastors and priests or over the quarreling of the various Protestant sects. “And even fewer paused to reflect that under the leadership of Rosenberg, Bormann, and Himmler, who were backed by Hitler, the Nazi regime intended eventually to destroy Christianity in Germany, if it could, and substitute the old paganism of the early “tribal Germanic gods and the new paganism of the Nazi extremists. As Bormann, one of the men closest to Hitler, said publicly in 1941, “National socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable.”

Excerpt From: Erwin W. Lutzer & Ravi Zacharias. “Hitler's Cross.” Moody Publishers, 2016. iBook

Prescient huh? I encourage anyone with an interest to read it in it's entirety.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
I've often wondered about the psyche of the German people and specifically the Church that allowed the Holocaust to happen so I was happy to stumble upon Erwin Lutzer's book, Hitler's Cross. Reading it has answered a lot of questions I had, and despite being a historical read, much of it is being repeated today.

Two quotes that really stood out could pretty much summarize us today. The first from Bonhoeffer

"“If Evil appears in the form of light, benefit, loyalty and renewal, if it conforms with historical necessity and social justice, then this, if it is understood straightforwardly, is a clear proof of it's abysmal wickedness."

and the second from “William Shirer, in his monumental The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich,”

"“It would be misleading to give the impression that the persecution of Protestants and Catholics by the Nazi State tore the German people asunder or even greatly aroused the vast majority of them. “It did not. A people who had so lightly given up their political and cultural and economic freedoms were not, except for a relatively few, going to die or even risk imprisonment to preserve freedom of worship. “What really aroused the Germans in the Thirties were the glittering successes of Hitler in providing jobs, creating prosperity, restoring Germany’s military might, and moving from one triumph to another in his foreign policy. “Not many Germans lost much sleep over the arrests of a few thousand pastors and priests or over the quarreling of the various Protestant sects. “And even fewer paused to reflect that under the leadership of Rosenberg, Bormann, and Himmler, who were backed by Hitler, the Nazi regime intended eventually to destroy Christianity in Germany, if it could, and substitute the old paganism of the early “tribal Germanic gods and the new paganism of the Nazi extremists. As Bormann, one of the men closest to Hitler, said publicly in 1941, “National socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable.”

Excerpt From: Erwin W. Lutzer & Ravi Zacharias. “Hitler's Cross.” Moody Publishers, 2016. iBook

Prescient huh? I encourage anyone with an interest to read it in it's entirety.


Quote{"...much of it is being repeated today."} end quote

There are similarities yes.
 
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SemperFiDawg

Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
Quote{"...much of it is being repeated today."} end quote

There are similarities yes. And in an age of "conspiracy" your point will be discounted as just another one. And it will not be politically correct to say around the people who despise political correctness.

And National Socialism was not socialism at all you realize, right? It was fascism by another name.

A lot of articulate and prominent Christians lost their lives back then for speaking truth to power.

There are a lot of one issue Christians today, for which that one issue, makes them disregard or even sanction evil they would otherwise find deplorable. I wonder if it was similar during the thirties in Europe.

I think you read a LOT, no really, A LOT more into my thread than was intended.
 

Israel

BANNED
This taken from a post here:

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=10743878&highlight=hitler+dream#post10743878

Stop me if you've heard this. It's my Hitler dream. Came in about 1992 as I was struggling in relationship to a brother and with a brother to whom I'd grown very close. Or maybe it was bound to. In some fashion it was quite becoming a heavy burden.

I dreamed I stood in a room, with Hitler as he stood behind a desk...he was regaling us (for I knew there were others "of his kin" and kind off to my right and a little on my periphery. Hitler was going on and on and on about how he had done so much, done all he had done...for the sake of "his people", making the most of professing his altruism.

I stood there and blurted loudly "You LIAR! Everything you have done you have done for only yourself!" Immediately he turned to his minions (those off to my right), and said "Get HIM!"
I fled through the door on my left, then made a right through another door, and into a room. It was piled high with bodies, so I sought to hide myself amongst them, pulling limbs and torsos over myself...and "playing dead". (Hey look! I'm an opossum of Christ!)

Then I heard his soldiers come in, and as they surveyed the bodies I heard them say "draw your knife and cut the eyeball of each". (They had a pretty clever way of telling who was not dead...just playing at it) And in the dream, as they said it, the vision of it, a sharp blade being drawn across an eyeball came to me...and I knew the jig was up, I couldn't bear that. So, I leapt up upon the bodies waving my arms and laughing uproariously fairly screaming in actions "here I am". And as they raised their stens and fired...each bullet passed through without a bit of pain, and I continued laughing and waving and dancing. As they continued firing.

Fast forward about twenty years. My wife and I are watching a movie "Downfall"...about Hitler's last days in his bunker in Berlin, as recorded by his personal secretary from whose book the movie was developed. (I'd already shared this dream with my wife as we were free about discussing things we saw as spiritual and spiritually informed and forming of experiences)

Anyway...it gets to this scene where Hitler is sitting (not standing) behind a desk. He's speaking to someone of his circle...and he is going on and on about why they must fight to the last man and child, there will be no consideration of surrender to the armies advancing on Berlin. Because all he has done, he has done for them, all he has suffered, he has suffered for them, and if they have shown themselves not worthy of his efforts and glorious vision on their behalf...they deserve to die.


I have thought often of this matter. I have thought often of the difference between two men, one is enticed by his belief he has suffered greatly "in a cause"...and ends up here:

On receiving their pay, they began to grumble against the landowner. ‘These men who were hired last worked only one hour, they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat’ of the day. But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Did you not agree with me on one denarius?
Take your pay and go. I want to give this last man the same as I gave you. Do I not have the right to do as I please with what is mine? Or are you envious because I am generous?’ So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”…

And this man here:

Which of you whose servant comes in from plowing or shepherding in the field will say to him, ‘Come at once and sit down to eat?’ Instead, won’t he tell him, ‘Prepare my meal and dress yourself to serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink’? Does he thank the servant because he did what he was told? So you also, when you have done everything commanded of you, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’”

One man is very aware of what he is, and has been, being tasked with.

The other simply knows serving righteousness is his only fitting task.

The relief for the first man is only here:

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


We either see that joy...
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
This taken from a post here:

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=10743878&highlight=hitler+dream#post10743878




I have thought often of this matter. I have thought often of the difference between two men, one is enticed by his belief he has suffered greatly "in a cause"...and ends up here:

On receiving their pay, they began to grumble against the landowner. ‘These men who were hired last worked only one hour, they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat’ of the day. But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Did you not agree with me on one denarius?
Take your pay and go. I want to give this last man the same as I gave you. Do I not have the right to do as I please with what is mine? Or are you envious because I am generous?’ So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”…

And this man here:

Which of you whose servant comes in from plowing or shepherding in the field will say to him, ‘Come at once and sit down to eat?’ Instead, won’t he tell him, ‘Prepare my meal and dress yourself to serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink’? Does he thank the servant because he did what he was told? So you also, when you have done everything commanded of you, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’”

One man is very aware of what he is, and has been, being tasked with.

The other simply knows serving righteousness is his only fitting task.

The relief for the first man is only here:

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


We either see that joy...

If one peruses accounts on the editorials by German " political thinkers" of the late 1800s and very early 1900s some germans at least viewed Germany as the next great empire. Simply for them, at the dawn of a new century, it was their just turn at it, a destiny evident, after the other western Europeans had their best days -- centuries-- for it. They gave notice and manifest in other nations newspapers and in tracts of their intentions a generation and more before the great wars to come -- and it was a move over message.

So hyper nationalism, super patriotism two great blinders, the example of the Roman Empire (the republic) as a carrot, as a model to aspire to were canals that raised the national levies that would bust out as the floods to come in the forms of next two WWs and the atrocities following...


In the face of jingoism, that is in your relative's face, in your neighbor's face, in the politicians face, in your clergyman's face, in your fellow christian's face, I cannot begin to understand intimately what it was like to walk in the blessing that walked the friends of Christ. But I have reason to imagine what it was like as latter the floods spared no man. I have reasons to imagine how the fallen world births its children and its peoples. Their mothers are strife and their father is death.

1 Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

So there is a relationship with the leaven of malice and truth, sincerity... They are water to oil. No truth, no sincerity speaks and with the leaven of malice. It is not truth, except that an individual's opinion is their truth. The leaven of malice is often spoke in people's truths today, of this I am intimate as it is more than an opinion of mine--it is my experience that malice is ripe for the picking... in the stress it is waiting for its zealots and demagogues.
 
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Artfuldodger

Senior Member
We could view this from a political aspect as well. It's the old divide and conquer scheme that was used by fascism.
You convince everyone that the other group is taking what rightfully belongs to you. You convince them that the Catholics must go, the Jews must go, the Negros must go, the Masons must go, and on down the line.
You then convince the "originals" that you will provide them with a job and security.

I guess it boils down to brainwashing. Once the Germans saw the truth it was too late to do anything about it.
 

centerpin fan

Senior Member
I think this thread set a new record for going off topic as quickly as possible.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Yip. Any novel post is immediately consumed by the jackals.


Well this jackal still is trying to figure out what might be the least the antelope meant by its post... :) As soon as it occurs to me... I'll swiftly return on topic.... what ever bone that might be. :) Hitler's Cross... is it about the German Cross? Is it about German Christians? The psyche of the German people? Two quotes that summarize us today? Us today? Antelope's pick of the week?
 

SemperFiDawg

Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
Well this jackal still is trying to figure out what might be the least the antelope meant by its post... :) As soon as it occurs to me... I'll swiftly return on topic.... what ever bone that might be. :) Hitler's Cross... is it about the German Cross? Is it about German Christians? The psyche of the German people? Two quotes that summarize us today? Us today? Antelope's pick of the week?


My apologies. I thought this:

I've often wondered about the psyche of the German people and specifically the Church that allowed the Holocaust to happen so I was happy to stumble upon Erwin Lutzer's book, Hitler's Cross.

would have made the topic of the book clear, and perhaps, just perhaps, this:

I encourage anyone with an interest to read it in it's entirety.

would have made my purpose for posting it clear. Nothing more, nothing less.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
My apologies. I thought this:



would have made the topic of the book clear, and perhaps, just perhaps, this:



would have made my purpose for posting it clear. Nothing more, nothing less.

Amen. This is a spiritual study and discussion forum---I assumed incorrectly that the two were as glove and hand. Now I know better. :)

No need to apologies... all is good for the jackal. :D
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
My apologies. I thought this:

would have made the topic of the book clear, and perhaps, just perhaps, this:

would have made my purpose for posting it clear. Nothing more, nothing less.

Then what you really wanted was a book discussion. I'm sorry, I missed it too. I knew that was part of what you were looking for but thought you might would like a discussion on the German psyche that allowed the Holocaust to happen.

Instead what you were looking for was how the book addressed this psyche of the German Christians that allowed the holocaust to happen.
 

Israel

BANNED
Sorry if you felt I went off the rails. The title..."Hitler's Cross", that is the bearing of one thing (or things) to the satisfaction (or benefit) of another as seems the usual understanding, interested me. Especially in light of even Hitler's disclosures.

Would we be surprised to find that refrain amongst tyrants...the "Mein Kampf" they believe they have endured in stretching toward their achievement?
 
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