Something to ponder

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
I brought this up with my wife Sunday, and I see it come up in a recent thread. And it comes up often.
Following Jesus..... what does this mean? It's said as if we have a road map. We don't. The NT is far from being complete. Truth is, we are to live "by the Spirit". The NT was never meant to be a revision to the law. So what does the term follow Jesus refer to? I edited out my long response to this. It should make for good discussion. And I'm sure that many will disagree about the NT being a road map to follow Jesus
 

hummerpoo

Gone but not forgotten
I think scripture can be viewed as a sort of road map; with the Pharisees running in the ditch on one side and the Gnostics in the ditch on the other. Viewed in this way, following Jesus would then be maintaining a steady pace in the lane which leads to God's will.

Lord, lead us to avoid speeding and overcorrections.
 

j_seph

Senior Member
Basic
Instruction
Before
Leaving
Earth

Went to a revival last week and he talked about following Jesus. In a nutshell we need to as Christians be able to see Jesus in front of us, walking in the sand. Just as kids sometimes do on the beach with their parents, we need to try and make sure our foot steps land in each of those that Jesus makes. We are not Jesus and we will fail to hit every footprint he leaves behind. But even then we can still see where he has walked, obstacles he has went over or around in the sand. He walks around a dead tree, we are to walk around it in his steps not to take shortcuts over it.
 

formula1

Daily Bible Verse Organizer
re:

I would describe Matthew 5-7 as great guidelines to following Jesus. Also, this instruction:

1 John 5:21
Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

Anything that is not following Jesus is an idol!

You can't always do these things perfectly, so you are safely saved by grace through faith in Christ. You are solidly in His hands if your faith and trust is in Him!

But you can do them better everyday if indeed you live by the Spirit!
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
I brought this up with my wife Sunday, and I see it come up in a recent thread. And it comes up often.
Following Jesus..... what does this mean? It's said as if we have a road map. We don't. The NT is far from being complete. Truth is, we are to live "by the Spirit". The NT was never meant to be a revision to the law. So what does the term follow Jesus refer to? I edited out my long response to this. It should make for good discussion. And I'm sure that many will disagree about the NT being a road map to follow Jesus

I want some disagreement time, not to be contrary, but to be honest. I disagree with this: " The NT was never meant to be a revision to the law."

It might not meant as a revision, but it is the account of a total revision of the law! And it is so because God promised to put in believers a heart of flesh as opposed to a heart of stone. Which means a heart of changed sentiments from which motivations and actions proceed.

The prophecies of the messiah and what he would do have totally revised the law once they were fulfilled! Believers don't proceed from a respected fear of doing wrong, but from love and a craving to do right.

The example of following Jesus for us is simply that Jesus had his Father in his heart, and that example translates into having Jesus in ours.

I would venture that Jesus did not have motivation to act from the law. When he did ( needed to do) out of the law it was to respect the people he was ministering to who did respect the law. ( Paul was like Jesus in this way.) However the Father's will was his motivation which he knew independent of the law...


Which is why gleaning corn on the Sabbath was not a biggy in the scheme of things... and although arguably it transgressed the law... it was fitting of our Father's will.

So ya... the law was shot down into a pile of dust like a charging elephant to his last charge.

Paul is a great example of a passionate elephant hunter, converted-- once devoted almost totally to dove hunting.
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
Could you live a devoted Christian life without the NT writings, if all you knew were the basic Christian salvation? Assuming you were saved? This assuming someone told you the gospel and no bibles existed?
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
I want some disagreement time, not to be contrary, but to be honest. I disagree with this: " The NT was never meant to be a revision to the law."

It might not meant as a revision, but it is the account of a total revision of the law! And it is so because God promised to put in believers a heart of flesh as opposed to a heart of stone. Which means a heart of changed sentiments from which motivations and actions proceed.

The prophecies of the messiah and what he would do have totally revised the law once they were fulfilled! Believers don't proceed from a respected fear of doing wrong, but from love and a craving to do right.

The example of following Jesus for us is simply that Jesus had his Father in his heart, and that example translates into having Jesus in ours.

I would venture that Jesus did not have motivation to act from the law. When he did ( needed to do) out of the law it was to respect the people he was ministering to who did respect the law. ( Paul was like Jesus in this way.) However the Father's will was his motivation which he knew independent of the law...


Which is why gleaning corn on the Sabbath was not a biggy in the scheme of things... and although arguably it transgressed the law... it was fitting of our Father's will.

So ya... the law was shot down into a pile of dust like a charging elephant to his last charge.

Paul is a great example of a passionate elephant hunter, converted-- once devoted almost totally to dove hunting.
The law came through Moses, life in the spirit came through Jesus. So revised in context, sure. But not meant to be a new written law to live by. We don't greet each other with a holy kiss. So, good that our spirit tells us that this is not "required teaching". An example of the NT not being a road map of revised laws.
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
I would describe Matthew 5-7 as great guidelines to following Jesus. Also, this instruction:

1 John 5:21
Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

Anything that is not following Jesus is an idol!

You can't always do these things perfectly, so you are safely saved by grace through faith in Christ. You are solidly in His hands if your faith and trust is in Him!

But you can do them better everyday if indeed you live by the Spirit!
"Be yea therefore perfect as your father in heaven is perfect" Matt 5 came up today in conversation. Most of the context would make for good discussion. The leading up to and after context. Is it instructional...... or is it so that we might realize our need for another way? Who is the audience? Pharasees or Christians?
 

GeorgiaBob

Senior Member
If you read the Gospel writer's citations of the statements of Jesus, there IS a "roadmap." However, too many people assume that Jesus speaks of some "after we die place" where followers of the "Way" will later find heaven. Jesus was NOT talking about someplace else or a later date.

Look carefully at what Jesus really says. His wonderful place we call "Heaven" is something WE LIVE here and now by accepting redemption and LIVING, in God's Grace, as Our Lord demonstrated, as God's representative, HERE and NOW. The "roadmap" is clear and real. If we walk the walk, love one another, share what we have, and always - in everything we do - praise God, we are walking on Heaven's road.
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
I think scripture can be viewed as a sort of road map; with the Pharisees running in the ditch on one side and the Gnostics in the ditch on the other. Viewed in this way, following Jesus would then be maintaining a steady pace in the lane which leads to God's will.

Lord, lead us to avoid speeding and overcorrections.
I would be stoned as a Gnostic if I lived in that day. It was a witch hunt. It was said that they could blend in among their church peers, sitting side by side, and you not know it. The NT gives much indication of "those who hear, and eyes that see". Or, "I will come to you and make myself known". And much more. A witch hunt of those who quietly thought, to themselves, that they might have an understanding of things that others may not yet know. Everyone is at different stages of growth in the Christian walk. Yet, in that day, if the hunt focused on you and you did not answer correctly, you could become the target. Later, the word Knostic, "in the know" got applied to anyone whom you wished to discredit. So, they were wrong. If you quietly think today, you have understanding a level above your peers, and you have faith that they will grow to your level as you grow to another level, of love, patience, etc. Your a knostic. Thank God it's seen as maturity these days.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Could you live a devoted Christian life without the NT writings, if all you knew were the basic Christian salvation? Assuming you were saved? This assuming someone told you the gospel and no bibles existed?


I believe so yes otherwise the Apostles were dupes... Paul preached to the gentiles. And many Christians don't have a profound knowledge of scripture. Many t/o history were illiterates. Up until the 2WW very few people were schooled and were basically functionally illiterate. So for them scripture might as well have been non-existent.
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
I believe so yes otherwise the Apostles were dupes... Paul preached to the gentiles. And many Christians don't have a profound knowledge of scripture. Many t/o history were illiterates. Up until the 2WW very few people were schooled and were basically functionally illiterate. So for them scripture might as well have been non-existent.
I was helping out a older man of the church whom was highly respected, whom carried this vib of being a true role model, in his words, actions, love, helping of less fortunate, etc. I was young in the faith. I asked him, why don't you come to bible study on Wednesday nights, as if that were some sort of "good Christian requirement" with an underlying thought that he should be there. He replied, "Do you know how many hurting people there are out there, just on my way to church". He said "I elect to encourage people, either visits or sometimes just phone calls. " This he did do. He no longer needed the words of the NT to read. He was applying them. I will never forget that. Although, this conversation....I realize I am far from that
 

Israel

BANNED
It's a great question, no? "What does it mean to follow Jesus?"
It could be the question of all. (At least among those who either believe...or say they do)

And how much has sprung from it of illusion, delusion, collusion and seduction? Not from the following per se, but from all the stuff that is precisely...not it. The stuff that "comes to light", that for however much time seems expedient, until seems must finally make way for is.

Wasn't it an old joke? The sculptor was asked..."How do you go about making a statue of an elephant?"
"Simple" he replied, "I start with a block of marble and take away all the pieces that don't look like an elephant".

I think the Bible at best, helps serve us as testimony to men, and of men as examples. Examples of men (would it be fair to say all men...here?) who have mistaken themselves as the Sculptor and men who have...through the Spirit of Christ...seen otherwise.


What then is general...and what specific? Or better, when does the specific, or at whose instruction is it prompted to be broadcast (if at all) as the general? This is a big question for us, isn't it?

What, and when to speak...and what, and when, to speak of.

Why is "law and grace" or "law vs grace" so BIG in Paul's writing? (who would doubt it was BIG in his life?) And, isn't it almost strange that such a man, sent specifically to those who knew almost little or nothing of "The Law of Moses" would still "bang that drum"?

Can it be that as God was working out very personally, very specifically, those things in Paul given prior preeminence somewhere along the line...(along the "Way") Paul found this things general application to all men...even those who may not know the specifics of the Law (of Moses)?

Ain't it...couldn't it be...something like that...with us? We sense God's dealings, that deepest of undercurrents cutting away at something that once had root in us, loosening the soil...and the novice says "I am learning something, I am feeling and learning something all men need to know!" Yet, little do we know that those same undercurrents must also have a work there...in that thing that says "Since I am beginning to know something...all men must need me to help them see it!"

We learn a great difference between knowing the time of shouting from the housetop...and things to be kept treasured in the heart, so much so that we realize perhaps how little we are needed among men...and how very much Another is.
And so Paul wrote "I sought to know nothing among you except Christ, and Him crucified" The One most needed...and needful...submitting perfectly...to be taken out of the way.

What faith must be found there! To so submit to the Sculptor's hand and chisel as He alone knows...how to make a man.
 
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1gr8bldr

Senior Member
I believe the idea "follow Jesus" since it does not say "obey Jesus", has to do with the verses "faith of Jesus" incorrectly translated as faith in Jesus. We follow him as our leader, his faith in God, pictured by Moses. He leads us to the promise land, out of slavery, just as Moses lead the chosen in the desert. Lack of faith... and we will wonder in the wilderness for years. So, it's not that I don't believe there exists an "obey Jesus" based on his teachings, I just think that the idea "to follow" has the Moses mindset
 

Israel

BANNED
I believe the idea "follow Jesus" since it does not say "obey Jesus", has to do with the verses "faith of Jesus" incorrectly translated as faith in Jesus. We follow him as our leader, his faith in God, pictured by Moses. He leads us to the promise land, out of slavery, just as Moses lead the chosen in the desert. Lack of faith... and we will wonder in the wilderness for years. So, it's not that I don't believe there exists an "obey Jesus" based on his teachings, I just think that the idea "to follow" has the Moses mindset

How about a very different aspect of "to follow"? As in an order, and orderliness established? The giving of preeminence to One and those thereafter...follow?

In the first of following, an effort can be ascribed..."I try to keep up with..." and the matter of the self and its working may be implicit.

In the other...a revelation is given, which when received sets things aright in a place no man can claim to his own work or effort. Now, in that place God sees...God sees the outworking of that truth to the willing demolition of the natural...as primary. For the man...yes...he may indeed experience it as work, as effort...even as suffering as idols fall...yet...he knows He did nothing to "make" Jesus Lord...he has of all...only been graciously allowed to see.

But God counts this faith in what he believes he has been given to see...as righteousness. What an oddly wonderful credit to be given! And thus the order is being restored by the revelation of its already accomplished...restoration. God, the head of Christ, Christ the head of man, and man (if it be as he has been given a wife), to learn rightly how to now minister this order.

Oh! The many pangs suffered in "trying"...trying to follow, trying to lead (a wife, or children...or any other)...but O! the relief...when an order is submitted to...rather than seek its enforcement.

Eyes...front. And everything is where it is. And must be. For God to handle.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
I believe the idea "follow Jesus" since it does not say "obey Jesus", has to do with the verses "faith of Jesus" incorrectly translated as faith in Jesus. We follow him as our leader, his faith in God, pictured by Moses. He leads us to the promise land, out of slavery, just as Moses lead the chosen in the desert. Lack of faith... and we will wonder in the wilderness for years. So, it's not that I don't believe there exists an "obey Jesus" based on his teachings, I just think that the idea "to follow" has the Moses mindset

I don't see it that way at all... "to follow" for me is to live the totally new life rather than the one the Moses mindset could afford.

Moses' rest was land, a real geographic location, our rest is a spiritual kingdom...a "place" fixed into the heavenly.

Our prophets have very different outlooks. Their's were warners. Ours build up the body of believers. Their's tarrying with God was assurance of their survival and blessings as a people especially in the Promised Land. Our walk with God is independent of a national cult or a land mass and it rains on both who do good and evil.

Jesus said follow me to his disciples... and if you follow him in scripture as he was doing his rounds...your doing pretty good. However, if you let the Holy Spirit teach you it is much better. And better than this, is when the HS has classes for many ( church) and you fellowship with brothers and sisters.

I would say...
 
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SemperFiDawg

Political Forum Arbiter of Truth (And Lies Too)
Could you live a devoted Christian life without the NT writings, if all you knew were the basic Christian salvation? Assuming you were saved? This assuming someone told you the gospel and no bibles existed?

Define “basic”.
 
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Israel

BANNED
Could you live a devoted Christian life without the NT writings, if all you knew were the basic Christian salvation? Assuming you were saved? This assuming someone told you the gospel and no bibles existed?

Are you asking..."can Christ capture a man?"
 

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