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  #276  
Old 04-23-2017, 09:28 PM
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No Hobbs, that would be the position of an egocentric will-worshipper.

My position is that God controls every thing that is a thing.
Things...

If you love something , set it free. If it comes back it is yours; if it doesn't it never was.

I think this is the chance that Lewis says God has taken.

If a wife in an arranged marriage submitted to her husband only because he was the husband... Would the husband feel loved? I wouldn't.
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  #277  
Old 04-23-2017, 09:36 PM
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I find the notion of salvation before repentance a bit absurd. Like CPF, I never knew people even considered it. It's just so non-sensical. A man who doesn't need repentance doesn't need a savior, and a savior who doesn't require repentance is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and thus his existence itself is self contradictory.
I needed salvation from the sins I couldn't repent from. If I could repent from sin, I wouldn't need a savior.
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  #278  
Old 04-23-2017, 10:54 PM
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Things...

If you love something , set it free. If it comes back it is yours; if it doesn't it never was.

I think this is the chance that Lewis says God has taken.

If a wife in an arranged marriage submitted to her husband only because he was the husband... Would the husband feel loved? I wouldn't.
?? So you're saying God loved some people that were never His ??

🔼This is man's twisted logic, and is not scriptural.
God foreknew His people, and loved those He foreknew before He created them, and nothing can separate them from His love.
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  #279  
Old 04-23-2017, 10:59 PM
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The idea of that which God ‘could have’ done involves a too anthropomorphic conception of God’s freedom. Whatever human freedom means, Divine freedom cannot mean indeterminacy between alternatives and choice of one of them. Perfect goodness can never debate about the end to be attained, and perfect wisdom cannot debate about the means most suited to achieve it. The freedom of God consists in the fact that no cause other than Himself produced His acts and no external obstacle impedes Him — that His own goodness is the root from which they all grow, and His own omnipotence the air in which they all flower.
CS Lewis; The problem of Pain
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Last edited by hummerpoo; 04-23-2017 at 11:06 PM. Reason: typo-repeated sentence.
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  #280  
Old 04-23-2017, 11:00 PM
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I find the notion of salvation before repentance a bit absurd. Like CPF, I never knew people even considered it. It's just so non-sensical. A man who doesn't need repentance doesn't need a savior, and a savior who doesn't require repentance is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and thus his existence itself is self contradictory.
Do you believe that before a man is regenerated, everything about God is foolishness to him?
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  #281  
Old 04-24-2017, 05:23 AM
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I needed salvation from the sins I couldn't repent from. If I could repent from sin, I wouldn't need a savior.
The concept of "sins I couldn't repent from" is foreign to me. Once the Holy Spirit convicts you that you are guilty of a sin, WHAT EXACTLY stops you or renders you incapable of asking God for forgiveness of that/those sins and help in turning from them?
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  #282  
Old 04-24-2017, 05:34 AM
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Do you believe that before a man is regenerated, everything about God is foolishness to him?
Not sure what you mean by regenerated, but Paul makes it very clear in Romans 1 that EVERY ONE is accountable to God from what they can and do clearly understand about him. No man can claim ignorance and thus innocence. If they persist in their rebellion it is THEN that they are turned over to their foolish rebellious ways.
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  #283  
Old 04-24-2017, 05:43 AM
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But some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples!” “I tell you, He answered, “if they remain silent, the very stones will cry out.”

There is something going on of which One man knows, and another does not. It has always been and always will be. One thing has said in itself "I will stop it....so I can add...to it.
I will sum it up, and then insert myself to make it greater."
(Another said "I will allow myself removed that it may be seen")

This thing is being dealt with perfectly by what always has been, and always will be.
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  #284  
Old 04-24-2017, 05:54 AM
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The concept of "sins I couldn't repent from" is foreign to me. Once the Holy Spirit convicts you that you are guilty of a sin, WHAT EXACTLY stops you or renders you incapable of asking God for forgiveness of that/those sins and help in turning from them?
I do ask for forgiveness but still struggle to repent. At one time in my life, I would have said freewill prevents me from repenting.

Maybe it still is. Maybe it's something so deeply embedded in my flesh that I can't shake until I give up that flesh.

I don't believe I'm the only Christian that struggles with sin. Is the Holy Spirit suppose to stop me from sinning or just make me aware that I'm sinning?
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  #285  
Old 04-24-2017, 05:55 AM
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?? So you're saying God loved some people that were never His ??

🔼This is man's twisted logic, and is not scriptural.
God foreknew His people, and loved those He foreknew before He created them, and nothing can separate them from His love.
Did God give man the biological needs necessary and a command to be fruitful and multiply?
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  #286  
Old 04-24-2017, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by SemperFiDawg View Post
Not sure what you mean by regenerated, but Paul makes it very clear in Romans 1 that EVERY ONE is accountable to God from what they can and do clearly understand about him. No man can claim ignorance and thus innocence. If they persist in their rebellion it is THEN that they are turned over to their foolish rebellious ways.
Indeed. But Paul saw another man. Who knew he could never take his stand upon what he knew. Nor be excused by what he didn't know.

I care very little, however, if I am judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not vindicate me. It is the Lord who judges me.

I am kinda fond of the way this is put:

I have a clear conscience, but that doesn't mean I have God's approval. It is the Lord who cross-examines me.
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  #287  
Old 04-24-2017, 06:11 AM
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All that Calvinist question — Free-Will and Predestination, is to my mind undiscussable, insoluble. Of course (say us) if a man repents God will accept him. Ah yes, (say they) but the fact of his repenting shows that God has already moved him to do so. This at any rate leaves us with the fact that in any concrete case the question never arrives as a practical one. But I suspect it is really a meaningless question. The difference between Freedom and Necessity is fairly clear on the bodily level: we know the difference between making our teeth chatter on purpose and just finding them chattering with cold. It begins to be less clear when we talk of human love (leaving out the erotic kind). ‘Do I like him because I choose or because I must?’ — there are cases where this has an answer, but others where it seems to me to mean nothing. When we carry it up to relations between God and Man, has the distinction perhaps become nonsensical? After all, when we are most free, it is only with a freedom God has given us: and when our will is most influenced by Grace, it is still our will. And if what our will does is not ‘voluntary’, and if ‘voluntary’ does not mean ‘free’, what are we talking about? I’d leave it all alone.
C. S. Lewis Yours, Jack (p. 186)
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  #288  
Old 04-24-2017, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by hobbs27 View Post
Things...

If you love something , set it free. If it comes back it is yours; if it doesn't it never was.
Hobb's version of a good shepherd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbs27 View Post
I think this is the chance that Lewis says God has taken.
Only a moron sees chance with the God of the Bible.

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If a wife in an arranged marriage submitted to her husband only because he was the husband... Would the husband feel loved? I wouldn't.
Your feelings. Your standards.
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  #289  
Old 04-24-2017, 08:08 AM
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Did Saul repent and become Paul or did God call on Saul which lead to Paul repenting?
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  #290  
Old 04-24-2017, 08:17 AM
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All that Calvinist question — Free-Will and Predestination, is to my mind undiscussable, insoluble. Of course (say us) if a man repents God will accept him. Ah yes, (say they) but the fact of his repenting shows that God has already moved him to do so. This at any rate leaves us with the fact that in any concrete case the question never arrives as a practical one. But I suspect it is really a meaningless question. The difference between Freedom and Necessity is fairly clear on the bodily level: we know the difference between making our teeth chatter on purpose and just finding them chattering with cold. It begins to be less clear when we talk of human love (leaving out the erotic kind). ‘Do I like him because I choose or because I must?’ — there are cases where this has an answer, but others where it seems to me to mean nothing. When we carry it up to relations between God and Man, has the distinction perhaps become nonsensical? After all, when we are most free, it is only with a freedom God has given us: and when our will is most influenced by Grace, it is still our will [which God has given us]. And if what our will does is not ‘voluntary’, and if ‘voluntary’ does not mean ‘free’, what are we talking about? I’d leave it all alone.
C. S. Lewis Yours, Jack (p. 186)
I cannot be sure that Mr. Lewis would accept my addition to his words at that place, but I think he would in this case as he himself did when his writings are read in full context (just as is the case in scripture).

Many of us would "leave it all alone", but our will is compelled otherwise, just as Mr. Lewis's will was compelled otherwise.

If we have been determined to speak of, or think of, man's will and God's will we must admit that both can not be sovereign. Mr. Lewis elsewhere does a good job of explaining that even God can not create something that contradicts his creation.
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  #291  
Old 04-24-2017, 08:18 AM
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I do ask for forgiveness but still struggle to repent.
If you are asking for forgiveness, and it is heartfelt, then that is the definition of repentance. Your statement above is contradictory if that is what you mean by "repent". Why must everyone struggle with such a simple concept. Even a child can understand that repentance is just a long word for heartfelt sorrow for an act that injured/offended another.
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  #292  
Old 04-24-2017, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by gemcgrew View Post
Hobb's version of a good shepherd.


Only a moron sees chance with the God of the Bible.


Your feelings. Your standards.
It's not that God has taken a chance on being Sovern. He is still sovern over creation start to finish, however each individual has free will to accept or reject him. That decision does not affect his omnipotence nor the overall outcome. I honestly don't see how anyone can dispute our free will. Not only did it lead to The Fall but it's evident in those around us every day who reject God. It's akin to denying your ability to deny. By denying it, you are in fact affirming it.
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  #293  
Old 04-24-2017, 08:33 AM
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If you are asking for forgiveness, and it is heartfelt, then that is the definition of repentance. Your statement above is contradictory if that is what you mean by "repent". Why must everyone struggle with such a simple concept. Even a child can understand that repentance is just a long word for heartfelt sorrow for an act that injured/offended another.
OK, I had the wrong definition. I thought repentance from sin meant to actually quit sinning.

I don't know if that is something that must come before salvation. Maybe repentance(heartfelt sorrow) and salvation happen simultaneously. I can see that concept.

I thought Centerpin was talking about turning from sin being a part of salvation. Maybe that's why he used someone who had no heartfelt sorrow. It's not that one must actually turn from sin but only wishes he could. Maybe?
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  #294  
Old 04-24-2017, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by SemperFiDawg View Post
Not sure what you mean by regenerated, but Paul makes it very clear in Romans 1 that EVERY ONE is accountable to God from what they can and do clearly understand about him. No man can claim ignorance and thus innocence. If they persist in their rebellion it is THEN that they are turned over to their foolish rebellious ways.
I think you actually know more than you think you know about regeneration, because you almost described it to a tee in post 281.

What you described could also be referred to as conversion,but they go hand in hand. Its a liberty to walk in newness of life with a new heart.

You mentioned Romans 1,which describes us in our unregenerated state. Now keep reading through chapter 8 to see us described after we are regenerated. Its good stuff!
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  #295  
Old 04-24-2017, 08:36 AM
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So for salvation one must have repentance(heartfelt sorrow), faith in God, and believe Jesus died for the sins we can't stop performing or have performed in the past. I guess one has to admit to being a sinner. Admitting being a part of repentance, perhaps?

Somehow tying all of this in with God's grace and God having mercy on whom he will have mercy and Jesus receiving all the Father gives him.
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  #296  
Old 04-24-2017, 08:43 AM
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OK, I had the wrong definition. I thought repentance from sin meant to actually quit sinning.

I don't know if that is something that must come before salvation. Maybe repentance(heartfelt sorrow) and salvation happen simultaneously. I can see that concept.

I thought Centerpin was talking about turning from sin being a part of salvation. Maybe that's why he used someone who had no heartfelt sorrow. It's not that one must actually turn from sin but only wishes he could. Maybe?
Again. Making something simple difficult. Repentance is a heartfelt sorrow for injuring/offending another. If it's heartfelt you will WANT to stop. If you don't, it isn't heartfelt thus it's not repentance, just an empty gesture.
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  #297  
Old 04-24-2017, 08:56 AM
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So for salvation one must have repentance(heartfelt sorrow), faith in God, and believe Jesus died for the sins.
Just stop here. He did.
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  #298  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:04 AM
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I cannot be sure that Mr. Lewis would accept my addition to his words at that place, but I think he would in this case as he himself did when his writings are read in full context (just as is the case in scripture).

Many of us would "leave it all alone", but our will is compelled otherwise, just as Mr. Lewis's will was compelled otherwise.

If we have been determined to speak of, or think of, man's will and God's will we must admit that both can not be sovereign. Mr. Lewis elsewhere does a good job of explaining that even God can not create something that contradicts his creation.

I can respect that, and I hope you will understand my bowing out of this discussion for the same reason. While I have an opinion on it, I have no real interest in dividing the brethren on the matter of, "I love God voluntarily " verses, " God has made me to love Him".
The ongoing debate over the hundreds of years I am sure has covered all scripture and all suppositions and no one can decide a winner, only choose a side... Of which both are on God's side.
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  #299  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:32 AM
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I can respect that, and I hope you will understand my bowing out of this discussion for the same reason. While I have an opinion on it, I have no real interest in dividing the brethren on the matter of, "I love God voluntarily " verses, " God has made me to love Him".
The ongoing debate over the hundreds of years I am sure has covered all scripture and all suppositions and no one can decide a winner, only choose a side... Of which both are on God's side.
All future events, just as all past events, fall under God's control, so I will not predict what I will do, but if someone claims man's power over God's power, I may well be compelled to react. From my lowly perspective, I can't see that changing until men accept God's sovereignty over man's will, which he has graciously created.

But I do regularly pray for opportunities that might provide perceptible results; but that's just a selfish man asking for satisfaction.
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  #300  
Old 04-24-2017, 12:05 PM
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It's not that God has taken a chance on being Sovern. He is still sovern over creation start to finish, however each individual has free will to accept or reject him. That decision does not affect his omnipotence nor the overall outcome. I honestly don't see how anyone can dispute our free will. Not only did it lead to The Fall but it's evident in those around us every day who reject God. It's akin to denying your ability to deny. By denying it, you are in fact affirming it.
What choice does a child have in choosing his father?

And even men who are fathers may acknowledge their children as their own...but be extremely hard pressed to say "I chose you as a particular child" (Out of a million sperm)

Men know happenstance by exception (the exception being ignorance of all being perfectly ordered according to an intent eternal) and live in the world of yes...and no...both toward God...and then in perfect consequence toward one another.
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