Mercy from disobedience?

Artfuldodger · Aug 8, 2017

This is something I've noticed. On one hand in Romans 5 we see the disobedience of the one man condemning all men and we see the obedience on one man making the many righteous.

Later in Romans 11 we see that God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all.

Paul explains that the Jews had to be blinded so that they would be consigned to disobedience to allow the Gentiles to become obedient. So that now God's mercy can be had by both groups.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Romans 11:30-32
Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all.

Artfuldodger · Aug 8, 2017

Now I'm looking at salvation on an individual level but still seeing a God who goes from being angry to offering forgiveness.

Kinda the same concept he used ans uses with nations and Israel.

First he's sour and then he's sweet.

Isaiah 57:16-18
God’s anger is not permanent. Although He punishes man, He will heal, guide and restore comfort to him.

Psalms 145:9-10
The Lord has compassion on all His creation and all He has made will praise Him.

Micah 7:18
God does not stay angry forever.

Artfuldodger · Aug 8, 2017

Just as with nations, I keep seeing the word "all" in scripture related to individuals;

"condemning all men"
"justification and life for all people"

"consigned all men to disobedience"
"He may have mercy on them all"

Israel · Aug 9, 2017

But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Something ain't it Art?

"hoping for nothing again"...

No one understands how the world works better than Jesus. And surely no one understands God's work through anyone but Jesus.
The world...no matter its finest, most glorious, most sublime "show" (and yes, we are foolish if we do not think we can be "taken in") always is working from that "quid pro quo". That is something in mind or heart "to be had" in the doing of all. Something to be gained...(due to assumption of lack) that propels it.
But we? God forbid! We are hilariously about something else, altogether, for we are "of something else, altogether".

We are not propelled by "do so you will have something"...we are all of having something, and then given "to do"...also as gift. (this is why I am so encouraged by Hobb's observation "sharing the gospel is not a chore")

Look...what do we do when we read in Isaiah 53:10"And Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick, If his soul doth make an offering for guilt, He seeth seed -- he prolongeth days, And the pleasure of Jehovah in his hand doth prosper." YLT

Only sadists have "delight" in bruising another, only masochists have delight (if we can see this outworking in God's soul as He is one with Jesus) in the hurt of themselves.

But we KNOW, God is neither. God is neither He who takes delight in hurting, nor One who delights in being hurt. What then could possibly be "at work"...there?

Oh, the unbeliever easily scorns according to this viewing..."Your God delights in making men suffer!" or "Your God is such a showman of His soulish piety to trick men into giving him what he so neurtotically and desperately needs...worship" But, we KNOW, this is not so.

(For the Spirit does not "give an inch here") This is the revelation of God, who He is, HOW He is, what HE is...from all time, to all time.) Always fully "invested". We measure, we calculate, we make our reasonings based on loss and gain...but all of that "natural" thinking is shattered here.

God loves a cheerful giver. I see His hilarity in it...is catching. God has made Himself...the reward. Because that's Who HE IS.

gordon 2 · Aug 9, 2017

A couple of things to consider.

God and praying people ( people of faith) reveal themselves progressively in scripture.

Scripture is written by inspired praying people.

Inspired by God yes, but also inspired by people of faith before them, scripture writers stand on the "shoulders" of the scripture writers, and the inspired oral story tellers, before them.

Therefore faith is inspired by one's walk with God but also by the faith of others or other's faith walk.

I suggest that the language used in scripture is a melange of these two inspiring influences. It is the best one can use to describe faith reality, but it is not that reality.

So that for me at least when I read " Micah's "God does not stay angry forever." I consider his most probable inspiration from a close reading of the sentence.

Is he/she saying God gets angry because God said it to us so, or because some of the people of faith said so to explain how they understand their past and present relationship with God?

It seems to me that the presence of God in one's life is difficult to articulate and the presence of inspired scripture in one's life is less so. So it takes time for language to adapt and to catch up within a life of faith to describe a living, and changing reality... which is that of relationship.

I'm always cautious when someone says God is this and God is that, or God does this and does that, or God does as a human father does, or as a human mother does. Is this said because it is how people of faith have revealed their relationship with God or is it bona fide revelation of how God describes the relationship ie: is it said from the lips of His presence. In the slow demonstration of who God is and who man is we need to take into account the language of our people, how it is used, when it is used, and who uses it and for what immediate or future purpose it might serve...

The spirit of man ( good and evil) and the Spirit of Love which is above good and evil in relationship...both are the items that language attempts to tackle, to describe. It is a two way conversation... both are talking... and we don't always share the same definitions nec·es·sar·i·ly.

Or to say it simply I find that when God is said to do this or that regards ill occurring in the life of man... it is simply man reaping what he sows, man does it to himself, not from God's design is it willed but from man's it occurs, from man who is willing to test the real design-- like there is a rush in playing with fires.

Israel · Aug 9, 2017

gordon 2 said:
A couple of things to consider.

God and praying people ( people of faith) reveal themselves progressively in scripture.

Scripture is written by inspired praying people.

Inspired by God yes, but also inspired by people of faith before them, scripture writers stand on the "shoulders" of the scripture writers, and the inspired oral story tellers, before them.

Therefore faith is inspired by one's walk with God but also by the faith of others or other's faith walk.

I suggest that the language used in scripture is a melange of these two inspiring influences. It is the best one can use to describe faith reality, but it is not that reality.

So that for me at least when I read " Micah's "God does not stay angry forever." I consider his most probable inspiration from a close reading of the sentence.

Is he/she saying God gets angry because God said it to us so, or because some of the people of faith said so to explain how they understand their past and present relationship with God?

It seems to me that the presence of God in one's life is difficult to articulate and the presence of inspired scripture in one's life is less so. So it takes time for language to adapt and to catch up within a life of faith to describe a living, and changing reality... which is that of relationship.

I'm always cautious when someone says God is this and God is that, or God does this and does that, or God does as a human father does, or as a human mother does. Is this said because it is how people of faith have revealed their relationship with God or is it bona fide revelation of how God describes the relationship ie: is it said from the lips of His presence. In the slow demonstration of who God is and who man is we need to take into account the language of our people, how it is used, when it is used, and who uses it and for what immediate or future purpose it might serve...

The spirit of man ( good and evil) and the Spirit of Love which is above good and evil in relationship...both are the items that language attempts to tackle, to describe. It is a two way conversation... both are talking... and we don't always share the same definitions nec·es·sar·i·ly.

Or to say it simply I find that when God is said to do this or that regards ill occurring in the life of man... it is simply man reaping what he sows, man does it to himself, not from God's design is it willed but from man's it occurs, from man who is willing to test the real design-- like there is a rush in playing with fires.

amen.

language (or at least as we know it) is a symbology, isn't it? We have made words to describe, to attempt to contain...a meaning.

But what can contain the God of the Heavens?

Thanks be to God for His heavenly gift.

Mercy from disobedience?

Artfuldodger

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