hobbs27
Senior Member
Not until they Heard Him. His voice woke them, His voice spoke the gospel to them.
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Slave woman and her son?
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Not until they Heard Him. His voice woke them, His voice spoke the gospel to them.
hobbs27
Senior Member
Let me explain how I see the old covenant shadow of things with natural physical Israel a foreshadow of today's spiritual Israel.
Israel according to Gal. 4:22f was the seed according to the flesh.
Christians are the children of the promise foretold by the prophets ( Isaiah 49, 65, Ps. 102)
The levitical priesthood according to the flesh is a shadow of the spiritual priesthood of Christ (Isaiah 66)
The literal altar of Israel is the spiritual altar of Christian service. (Rom. 12, Heb. 13)
The literal mountains of Sinai and Zion are the spiritual mount Zion (Hebrews 12) the goal of the Old Testament prophecies ( Isaiah 24-25)
Literal Jerusalem is the heavenly Jerusalem ( Isaiah 65-66)
The physical land of Israel is now the heavenly country for which Abraham looked (Hebrews 11)
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Maybe that's how "all Israel was/will be saved as mentioned in Romans 11. After the full number of gentiles come/came in, God will soften the ones he hardened to let the gentiles in, and give them an awakening. They will hear him. They will know him. They will worship him.
The ones that God foreknew.
That's pretty much how it works for everyone really. Jew or Gentile. God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. Remnant election by grace and not works, The Potter, the clay and on & on.
Does the Potter have that much power?
NE GA Pappy
Mr. Pappy
any scripture for that thought process? Thinking for Hebrews 11 here.
.... it was counted righteousness .....
NE GA Pappy
Mr. Pappy
what right does the clay have to ask the potter why it is a chamber pot, and not a buttermilk churn?
The clay's job is to be whatever the potter moulds it to be.
Yes, the potter has that much power, and much more
Israel
BANNED
Amen. And amen.
He has power to silence both the chamber pot and the churn, and still preserve them to His use.
Even make them glad, and joyous!
His chamberpot. His churn. Being His is all that matters.
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
My view of this is that God promised Abramham that he would have decendants like the stars, yet Abraham's faith was not yet strong. He tried to create the promise or help God fullfill the promise as if God needed help. Although Ishmael was born first, Issac was the firstborn because God had promised him before Ishmael through Sarah. Issac could have said, before Ishmael, I am/was. Rule of thumb for all bible understanding. God's promise/word is as a fact although not always yet having come to pass. Old testament saints were commended for believing his promises as fact. In the Christian journey, do we wait for the righteousness for which we hope through the spirit..... or do we try to help God through our own best efforts or discipline? The later is a form of slavery..... more brick, up the quota.
Spineyman
Senior Member
NE GA Pappy
Mr. Pappy
I tell my kids all the time, be sure it is the right decision, because every decision you make in your life after this one, will be affected by this decision.
hobbs27
Senior Member
How can Galatians 4:22f have so many different views when it explicitly explains itself?
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Galatians 4:23
His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
John 3:6
Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
Not exactly the same but one by flesh and one by promise. Yet both in Galatians actually came by flesh only even if one was promised through divine intervention.
I guess the thing about Christianity that I struggle with is this physical vs spiritual thing. On one hand I see the spiritual aspects of it but I also see the physical aspects of it as well.
Jesus was both. His Father was spiritual yet his Mother was physical. That makes it hard to dismiss the physical aspect of Christianity. No matter how hard I try, I keep reading that Jesus was born a Jew. To me that adds a physical aspect to Christianity.
Now if there was no mention of Jesus or the ancestry leading up to his birth being Jewish, then I could take the Jewish thing out of the equation. Since God himself thought to include it by giving his Son a Jewish Mother then I must include it myself.
Romans 11:29-31
For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.
Who is they and them? Who are the towo different groups? I've always assumed one was Jewish and the other Gentile.
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Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Hobbs,
You mentioned that the patriarchs weren't Jewish because they believed Jesus was the Messiah. With that line of thinking then Jesus couldn't be Jewish either. I'm sure he believed he is the Messiah. Matrilineality in Judaism is the view that people born of a Jewish mother are themselves Jewish. I'm not an expert in the matter myself.
I've heard Jesus referred to as the King of the Jews but I'm not sure who referred to him a such. There is scripture of Jesus being the Great High Priest although that doesn't exactly make him Jewish. Jesus is considered a priest in the order of Melchizedek.
Was Melchizedek Jewish?
Maybe in some way we can rule out that Jesus was not Jewish but then we are still stuck on that thing that he was physical and that he had a physical resurrection.
So we are back to the physical vs spiritual dilemma of the whole Christianity thing.
You mentioned that the patriarchs weren't Jewish because they believed Jesus was the Messiah. With that line of thinking then Jesus couldn't be Jewish either. I'm sure he believed he is the Messiah. Matrilineality in Judaism is the view that people born of a Jewish mother are themselves Jewish. I'm not an expert in the matter myself.
I've heard Jesus referred to as the King of the Jews but I'm not sure who referred to him a such. There is scripture of Jesus being the Great High Priest although that doesn't exactly make him Jewish. Jesus is considered a priest in the order of Melchizedek.
Was Melchizedek Jewish?
Maybe in some way we can rule out that Jesus was not Jewish but then we are still stuck on that thing that he was physical and that he had a physical resurrection.
So we are back to the physical vs spiritual dilemma of the whole Christianity thing.
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
I believe that men are still blinded, that the truths are hidden. Abraham was the father of our faith. He was "called out" and went not knowing where he was going, just going. As opposed to the building of the tower of bable, God said "I will make a name for you" as opposed to them making a name for themselves. Abraham worked out his faith, his spiritual journey. He failed early own.... having the promises. One that his offspring would be as plentiful as the stars. He was invincible. Yet he waivered in his faith and returned to egypt after having been told don't go back there. Yet God protected Sarah having patience with Abraham. Yet Abraham grew in his faith to the point that he was full ready to offer Issac believing that God must be planning something because he knew and had faith in that promise. Abraham never settled in a particular area as did others. Others settled in an area and that area became a city that took their name. But Abraham was looking forward to a city whose builder and maker was God, the new Jerusalem. As Steven said, God does not live in houses made by man. God promised "I will build you a city" and you will bear fruit you did not plant, and live in houses you did not build. The fruits of the spirit are given, not obtained by our best efforts
NE GA Pappy
Mr. Pappy
just a thought that popped into my head as I was reading this..
did you know that Mt Moriah is the mountian were the Temple was built, and at the crest of that mountain is Golgatha, where God's son was sacraficed, according to the Jewish sages.
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
I did not know this. This is interesting. Wish I knew more of this sort of thing
NE GA Pappy
Mr. Pappy
I only started learning this stuff in the past 4 or 5 years. I love to find the ties to OT/NT prophecy and the land there. If you ever get a chance to visit Israel, do so. It is an amazing place.
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
I never knew Issac was to be offered in the same place Jesus was sacrificed, thus the Lord's promise "I will provide" takes on even more meaning. Thanks Pappy, I had overlooked this and may have never known the significance of the location. And as I googled it, I see it is rich with significance in many ways. The temple as you mentioned, and more
NE GA Pappy
Mr. Pappy
every time I turn over a rock, there is something new and a deeper meaning to the scripture I have learned. I learned so much on the 10 day trip to Israel 2 years ago, I have tried to go back, but haven't been able. If the Lord wills, I will be going back there one day.
Just the things I was able to learn about jewish festivals, and tradition, or why things are done in certain order, was eye opening. Each festival is a shadow of foretelling of a future event. To see how they all line up.... I just can't describe it.
Just the things I was able to learn about jewish festivals, and tradition, or why things are done in certain order, was eye opening. Each festival is a shadow of foretelling of a future event. To see how they all line up.... I just can't describe it.
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
The Jewish traditions are extremely eye opening, the Sader meal, I can't remember the Passover meal. It all points straight to Jesus. One day the veil will be lifted so they can see. I used to take prisoners out to church on sundays. Wherever they wanted to go and then to a good buffet restaurant. They really enjoyed it. Also had a group of singers within that I often took out to revivals. The prison contacted me and asked if I could take "Scott" Jew whom I had befriended while hanging out, LOL, behind bars, in a low key witness mentality, not being pushy, asked if I would take him to a Passover meal at a Jewish church. I said yes after much thought because nothing conflicted with my beliefs.... it just was incomplete to my beliefs and my foundation actually came from theirs. It was so ritualistic, extremely, but was an extreme attempt of not losing the original traditions. It was amazing that they did not see how Jesus fit so perfect. And they had so much in regard to the messiah coming. Amazing learning moment and eye opener to the "veil" that has to be removed so that they can see.
1gr8bldr
Senior Member
Would love to but may never. LOL, I have never been anywhere. I would love to be able to decern the proper fit to all their traditions. I searched it out once, reading several books but was unable to absorb it into my brain
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