Ronnie T
Ol' Retired Mod
Recently the young wife of a youth minister told me that "a person doesn't have to be good to go to heaven".
Is that really a true statement?
Is that really a true statement?
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Do you have to be good to go to heaven?
- Thread starter Ronnie T
- Start date
centerpin fan
Senior Member
They need to be born again. You will know them by their fruit.
formula1
Daily Bible Verse Organizer
Re:
There is nothing good you can do to be saved. God granted salvation by His grace through faith in Jesus to all those who believe. God's law condemns all men except by this truth and the acceptance of it!
But doesn't it make sense that those who believe (that is trust and live) in Christ by faith would bear the fruits of Christ living in Him and working through Him. I don't think it can be defined as 'us doing good' but rather Christ doing His works through us, and therefore His works are good.
John 15:5
I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
There is nothing good you can do to be saved. God granted salvation by His grace through faith in Jesus to all those who believe. God's law condemns all men except by this truth and the acceptance of it!
But doesn't it make sense that those who believe (that is trust and live) in Christ by faith would bear the fruits of Christ living in Him and working through Him. I don't think it can be defined as 'us doing good' but rather Christ doing His works through us, and therefore His works are good.
John 15:5
I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
You have to believe in Jesus first, then you have to live as Jesus did. You never can live as perfectly as he did but you have to try. If you don't try to live as Jesus did, you won't go to Heaven. It takes something from you as well as God. It's like a marriage. It takes two to make it work.
Michael F. Gray
Senior Member
Paul said it best in I Corinthians 11:1
Ronnie T
Ol' Retired Mod
Yeah I know what you mean.
But her statement leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.
We certainly should never consider ourselves good, but when a person says, "I don't have to be good to go to heaven" something got missed in the discipleship class.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
It sounds like Jesus is saying he isn't God. If Jesus isn't good, then is he saying he isn't perfect? In this same story he tells the man he must follow God's commandments and get rid of his worldly goods, if he wants to go to Heaven.
By what he told this man, there is more to getting to Heaven than being saved. There is something the man must do himself.
• Opening, Mark 10:17: Jesus was leaving on a trip when a rich young man came running up to Him asking how he could get to heaven.
• Middle, Mark 10:18-21: Jesus had a conversation with the young man telling him to obey the commandments to reach heaven. Jesus loves the man offers the young man a chance to follow Him, and he rejects Jesus offer.
• Closing, Mark 10:22: As a rich person, he was unable to give up material goods for spiritual goods to attain heaven.
Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/282550
Me too, on the bad taste. I hope her need is for better communication skills.
To the contrary, it sounds like Jesus is saying "Do you know that I am God?"
In asking about the commandments he is saying "Do you practice the teachings of Moses?"
Next He says, "Then follow Me in true discipleship", and that was the answer to "what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
But that is not the "closing", far from it, it continues through vs. 31. I'll not write a study of the passage here, as it is off topic, but if you choose to study it, please don't miss the key implications of "With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."
One more note, be very cautious of on-line information. There are no substitutes there for the Holy Spirit.
fish hawk
Bass Master
Sorry i have to respectfully disagree.....The if you don't try to live as Jesus did,you wont go to heaven part.
Who can even come close to living as Jesus did?
John 3:7 Ye must be born again
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Acts 16_30-13 Sirs,what must I do to be saved?And they said.Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
God's power will save you,keep you saved and enable you to live the life he has call you to.
God's gift of salvation is a free gift.If God gives you something do you think he's gonna take it back?
You have to look no further than Davids life to see that once your saved your always saved.
When you become a Christian you are instantly transformed and should strive to live a life thats good and pleasing to God.
For instance:A person gives there life and heart to Jesus at the age of 15,they do what God has commanded them to do as far as gaining there salvation.At the age of 18 they fall into temptation, start living a worldly life,but they still believe in God,but maybe there not exactly living for him and are doing thing that are not so good.Then at the age of 30 they start living for the Lord again.Say they died between the ages of 18-30, when they were not doing good or not living for the Lord does this mean between those years they were not saved?Is that what your saying?
I think as Christians we should live the best life we can and try to do good.I think we should follow Jesus' teachings,commandments and examples,but for most of us trying to live as Jesus did is an unattainable burden that can never be achieved by most.....thats why we have the free gift of salvation!!!It lifts that burden.
fish hawk
Bass Master
Ronnie i think her statement should require further explanations,especially if she was telling this to a new believer.
I get what your saying though.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
Yes that's what i'm saying. I don't believe in "once saved always saved." What if the person strays and never comes back? The same person could stray so far that he proclaims he is a atheist and die before he goes back to the Church. Some atheist do this. Some repent and come back to Jesus. I feel if they were to die in this state of non-belief, they would not go to Heaven.
Matthew 12:30
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
gordon 2
Senior Member
I don't know if a parallel if apropriate, but the Hebrews were "saved" from bondage in Egypt--Yet, the first generation did not enter into the Promised Land. They were not "good" in that they were adulterous to the God of Abraham. They ended wondering in the desert a full generation or two.
So christians are "saved" by the Cross from the world of sin, but yet we are not "saved" for being into the Kingdom if we refuse it... because like the first generation of Hebrews we cling to adulterous relationships and cannot enter, or don't what to enter, though we call ourselves saved, called and chosen.
Wherever the Kingdom will lead to, like the first generation of Hebrews, we will not get "overthere" but perhaps our children and great grand children will for being "good".
So yes we are saved from the world and can yet be ungodly, but we cannot be saved into anything Kingdom and Heaven and be to other gods and to the men of old gods. For this lack of goodness we (generations) are doomed to wonder...alot, just like Moses and his people.
So yes again we can be saved from and don't have to be good, but we wonder like the first generations of Hebrews wondered their deserts, refusing to be good and saved into our Promised Land.
This is perhaps a very crude analogy, but lets say that many, myself and others, are called to serve and to be marines ( Marine Corp). Now after basic training, how long do you think we would be marines if we did not fight like marines, struck out on our own, scoffed at Esprit -de- Corp, knew not who was friendly and who was not, and why and for who we served? I wonder.
So christians are "saved" by the Cross from the world of sin, but yet we are not "saved" for being into the Kingdom if we refuse it... because like the first generation of Hebrews we cling to adulterous relationships and cannot enter, or don't what to enter, though we call ourselves saved, called and chosen.
Wherever the Kingdom will lead to, like the first generation of Hebrews, we will not get "overthere" but perhaps our children and great grand children will for being "good".
So yes we are saved from the world and can yet be ungodly, but we cannot be saved into anything Kingdom and Heaven and be to other gods and to the men of old gods. For this lack of goodness we (generations) are doomed to wonder...alot, just like Moses and his people.
So yes again we can be saved from and don't have to be good, but we wonder like the first generations of Hebrews wondered their deserts, refusing to be good and saved into our Promised Land.
This is perhaps a very crude analogy, but lets say that many, myself and others, are called to serve and to be marines ( Marine Corp). Now after basic training, how long do you think we would be marines if we did not fight like marines, struck out on our own, scoffed at Esprit -de- Corp, knew not who was friendly and who was not, and why and for who we served? I wonder.
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fish hawk
Bass Master
I think we have to look no further than the story of the prodigal son
Luke 15:11-21
New International Version (NIV)
The Parable of the Lost Son
11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.
13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.
17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.
“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.
21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.......
Even though the father knew his son was off in the far country ,squandered his wealth in wild living and not living to please the Lord.He still loved him.
Also:
John 10:28-30
New International Version (NIV)
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
pthunter74
Member
Short answer is no.Convicted mass murderer on the electric chair repents and accepts Jesus as lord and savior gets into heaven but that dosent make him a good person.
Ronnie T
Ol' Retired Mod
If you've read many of my forum comments you probably already know that I put no value in the modern-day teaching of once saved always saved.
As for the prodigal son; the young man was seperated from his father and lost "until" the son chose to return. The father did not go get him, and the father had nothing for the son "until" the son returned.
The same is true of our relationship with God.
Does a person have to be good to go to heaven?
The real question: "Will a saved person strive to be good?
Now we're on the narrow path.
RBM
Senior Member
Artfuldodger said:
Ronnie T said:
I don't call once saved always saved "modern-day" teaching. It has always been this way for many Christians. So its "old-day" teaching. My belief is Christ died once for all folk as the perfect sacrifice. He does not need to die more than once. We die once with Christ, buried in water, and raised to new life in like manner of Christ's example. So once saved always saved in like manner. If a person who "claims" to be saved goes so far away from Christ then they need to take a long hard look at "if" they were saved to begin with. There are times we stray and do need to repent but we know we need to repent through the "pulling" of Christ and the Spirit of God (the Comforter) on our hearts. Even scripture calls this backsliding. It is not up to us to determine the salvation of someone else, only our own salvation. We are not saved by emotions but by Christ who "changes" the heart and spirit at the age of accountability when we know the need for Christ. As a personal experience, only God and the person knows the transformation of heart and spirit. Are we going to say, "I was saved yesterday but not today?" God forbid. How many times did Christ die and rise from the dead? I can bring up the scripture to reinforce once saved always saved.
Psalms 103:10-12
John 14:1-4
John 6:37
John 10:28
Romans 5:8-9
Romans 8:16,17,23
Romans 8:28-39
Ephesians 1:13, 4:30
Philippians 1:6
2 Timothy 1:12
1 John 3:14, 5:12
