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  #26  
Old 12-06-2017, 06:09 PM
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The UN? Oh for the love of spaghetti, get real.

You need to get out more if you think the UN is anything but a vocal arm of the NWO.

Evangelicals are probably known as being zionist because they support Israel in most things. We believe that the jews are Gods chosen people, and we believe the scripture that says God will bless those who bless Israel, and curse those who curse Israel.

As to my post about Israel's treatment of their citizens... they are much like the US. They have their issues, and some problems with injustices, but taken as a whole, they are the strongest democracy that the middle east has ever seen. Their governments law give equal rights to the jews, arabs and christians.
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Old 12-06-2017, 06:11 PM
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Gordon, why don't you tell us your back ground, your church of choice, and what you believe about Israel? It might help me understand where you are coming from.
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  #28  
Old 12-06-2017, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by NE GA Pappy View Post
Gordon, why don't you tell us your back ground, your church of choice, and what you believe about Israel? It might help me understand where you are coming from.
Who is "us" that i'm telling at? If your Christian I'm that and therefore one of us. I'm RC.

I have some respect for the UN. I understand that you don't. Many are like you and that is fine.

However , as a Christian I don't understand political Israel today to be biblical Israel. So political Israel, democratic or not so democratic, that is Zionist Israel today is just one of the world's nations and with no special status to be above the law. I liken it more to former South Africa with its apparthied regime than an egalitarian society, or to England during the Scottish or Irish Land Clearances, or to Stalin's ethnic cleansing of Russia's foreign border states, Sherman's burning of the south ( which is still fresh in some minds) and recent ethic cleansing in the Balkans...etc... I give you these as example.

My faith informs me that biblical Isreal is "us" today or the people of faith worldwide and not Zionist Israel. Do I believe that Israel should exist? Absolutely.

As a Christian I have interest that Israel is getting away with crimes because of some erroneous beliefs that some Christians have about Zionism. As a Christian I have interest that Christian bigotry is fueling hate. As a Christian I have this "Blessed are the peacemakers." and wonder if the Recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Isreal by the USA will not bless people at all short and long term, but rather will get many killed that would otherwise live and engage in God's blessings. It will fuel hate and the spawns of humiliations for centuries.

Hope this is plain...

Now about being RC, I suspect at least half of American RC believe as you do, and the other half perhaps as I do.
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Last edited by gordon 2; 12-06-2017 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 12-06-2017, 08:14 PM
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so you are a believer in replacement theology? that Christians have replaced the Jews where prophecy and promises are given?


Do you believe that Israel gets a honest deal in the news when reports are given about the PA and Hamas dealings?
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  #30  
Old 12-06-2017, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by NE GA Pappy View Post
so you are a believer in replacement theology? that Christians have replaced the Jews where prophecy and promises are given?


Do you believe that Israel gets a honest deal in the news when reports are given about the PA and Hamas dealings?
I know nothing of these dealings. I know only that when a family's home is burned before their eyes, and that family suffers intimidation much like the entire village and the entire town and when they are evicted from their ancestral homes that some will forgive, but some will fight the best they know how. These will become terrorists for some but patriots for others. And usually, as was the case with Ireland, it will take 9-10 generations before things start to simmer down. I fear that the present recognition of Jerusalem will have negative repercussion for as many generations to come. It is not the way to peace nor is Zionism in its present form.
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  #31  
Old 12-06-2017, 08:31 PM
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why don't you answer the ?'s

it shouldn't be that hard to tell me what you believe
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  #32  
Old 12-07-2017, 07:18 AM
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why don't you answer the ?'s

it shouldn't be that hard to tell me what you believe
See my post #28 again. ( I cannot answer more plainly.)

But let me plainly add: I believe that lots of people are going to die and suffer for the decision by the USA to recognize Jerusalem as the capitol of Israel. I believe that those in keeping with the politics of Zionism don't care, and that the USA is now overtly complicit in the Zionist schemes. However as a Christian I do care mainly because of the Sermon on the Mount. ( Matt. 5-6-7)
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Old 12-07-2017, 08:05 AM
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Left wing media hype. He stated a fact. Palestinians will get their rock chucking practice in.
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  #34  
Old 12-07-2017, 08:52 AM
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My understanding is most Israelis don't want this. They know it's just going to be more blood shed for nothing.
We shouldn't have ever recognized Israel as a nation... We should stay out of recognizing Jerusalem as their capital.
You must know many Israelis. All that I know applaud this action. There is always blood shed, because the Arabs won't live in peace.

We did the RIGHT thing recognizing Israel. After the atrocity suffered by the Jews at the hands of Nazi Germany, they deserved a safe sanctuary at the very least. Their claims to their territory and Jerusalem trumps all other claims.
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by gordon 2 View Post
On the grounds that the United Nations has accused Israel of over 60 counts of crimes against humanity and that the victims of those crimes were Palestinian Christians and Muslims your eye witness account of an egalitarian view of Israeli society is suspect to me? But hey have at your view.

So can you explain to me why evangelicals are known as being Zionists? This is the reason I'm asking if you are Christian. Where do they get their outlook? Is it informed by faith? Or is this view erroneous-- they are not Zionist?
Now I see where you are! The UN has become a Christian/US basing bunch of socialist anarchist. To believe what this body says about Israel, while it lets countless atrocities by Arabs go unmentioned and puts Muslims on its "women's rights" committee, requires a very low threshold understanding of what is right and what is wrong! Israel has a stellar record of protecting all of its citizens, both Arab and Jew, while the mutt organization known as Palestine has but one goal, the destruction of Israel.

We need to kick those lying scumbags out of the US and cut off most, if not all of our contribution to the UN. You now have zero credibility with me!
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  #36  
Old 12-07-2017, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by gordon 2 View Post
See my post #28 again. ( I cannot answer more plainly.)

But let me plainly add: I believe that lots of people are going to die and suffer for the decision by the USA to recognize Jerusalem as the capitol of Israel. I believe that those in keeping with the politics of Zionism don't care, and that the USA is now overtly complicit in the Zionist schemes. However as a Christian I do care mainly because of the Sermon on the Mount. ( Matt. 5-6-7)
huh? you don't know what you believe as to whether or not Christians have replaced the jews in bibical prophecy?
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  #37  
Old 12-07-2017, 10:19 AM
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so you are a believer in replacement theology? that Christians have replaced the Jews where prophecy and promises are given?
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?...heology&page=3

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You mentioned that Presbyterians hold to this "replacement theology." I've never heard a Presbyterian claim such. They call their perspective "covenant theology." And, while I strongly disagree with several points of covenant theology, I don't think we should use a pejorative to describe it. The only people that I hear use the term "Replacement Theology" are dispensationalist who are attacking covenant theology. I have never heard anyone describe themselves as holding to "replacement theology." I believe, in the interest of honest dialogue, we should use the terms people prefer to describe for describing their own position rather than putting words in their mouth.
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  #38  
Old 12-07-2017, 12:10 PM
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Is Christian Zionism or Zionist pejorative?
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  #39  
Old 12-07-2017, 01:30 PM
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Is Christian Zionism or Zionist pejorative?
As in most cases of pejoratives, context matters; but I think the generalized answer is, yes; although I don't think it originated as one (research required).
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Last edited by hummerpoo; 12-07-2017 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 12-07-2017, 03:11 PM
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You must know many Israelis. All that I know applaud this action. There is always blood shed, because the Arabs won't live in peace.

We did the RIGHT thing recognizing Israel. After the atrocity suffered by the Jews at the hands of Nazi Germany, they deserved a safe sanctuary at the very least. Their claims to their territory and Jerusalem trumps all other claims.
I don't know alot of Israeli's, I based what I said on news reports I heard some time ago.

As for if we did the right thing... The Zionist in Israel were terrorist at that time, not a bunch of Victims from the holocaust... Which killed more Christians than Jew's btw.

President Truman went against the pleas of his Generals, just as many liberals do, and recognized Israel as a state. Countless Arabs, Jew's, and Americans have died for that decision.. And you think it was the right thing to do? Every year it is going to get worse, not better. It's a perpetual blood shed that will never end.....Thanks to Big Liberal Harry S Truman.
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  #41  
Old 12-07-2017, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by hummerpoo View Post
As in most cases of pejoratives, context matters; but I think the generalized answer is, yes; although I don't think it originated as one (research required).
I was not aware that Zionist was pejorative. I thought it was simply as calling a rose a rose. Lots of Christians are Zionist knowingly and unknowingly. Some Christian groups are more Zionist than others. It is just a fact. I also suspect that different degrees of Zionist ideals exist in Israel as some are not happy with their original homeland they would take away the homeland of other peoples and make it their own because according to them Israel should have the borders as per the land mass of the Israel in scripture--which I understand was not the intent of the Balfour Declaration.
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  #42  
Old 12-07-2017, 08:42 PM
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I was not aware that Zionist was pejorative. I thought it was simply as calling a rose a rose. Lots of Christians are Zionist knowingly and unknowingly. Some Christian groups are more Zionist than others. It is just a fact. I also suspect that different degrees of Zionist ideals exist in Israel as some are not happy with their original homeland they would take away the homeland of other peoples and make it their own because according to them Israel should have the borders as per the land mass of the Israel in scripture--which I understand was not the intent of the Balfour Declaration.
I'm sure there are varying degrees within the "Replacement Theology" realm as well. Supersessionism, Covenant Theology if you prefer. The word supersessionism comes from the English verb to supersede, from the Latin verb sedeo, sedere, sedi, sessum, "to sit",plus super, "upon". It thus signifies one thing being REPLACED or supplanted by another. I too have trouble remembering what is pejorative. Like Hummer suggests, it's how it is used. Maybe even in the tone of our words.

One could go back that Israel as a nation never was the Israel God chose. Many of the Reformed persuasion hold this view siting that God never changes. Yet many others view some type of change or dispensation of something happening that allowed the Gentile to be grafted into physical or spiritual Israel. Most just view it more as the Church instead of physical Israel that they were grafted into. To many the Commonwealth of Israel that they were strangers to as Gentiles was not the physical nation of Israel.

Yet they believed something happened that created a replacement theology or fulfillment theology. They admit there was a change. This is how they feel about the Mystery that was revealed to Paul. Paul does remind us not to brag about the grafting to the point some see it as a replacement or super-session.

In other views True Israel has always been spiritual Israel and there never was a favored nation that Abraham fathered and that Jesus was born a part of.
Man made it out to be this Jewish thing that God never saw or had. I guess it would be hard to call that belief "Replacement" as nothing never changed.

Does admitting to a change make one a Dispensationalists? How many changes or time periods does one have to believe in make one a Dispensationalist?
We could even add the time some believe the Old and New overlapped. Some also believe there are no more periods in time. That it is finished. Me personally believe there will be at least one more time period. Maybe two.

Last edited by Artfuldodger; 12-07-2017 at 09:18 PM.
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  #43  
Old 12-07-2017, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by gordon 2 View Post
I was not aware that Zionist was pejorative. I thought it was simply as calling a rose a rose. Lots of Christians are Zionist knowingly and unknowingly. Some Christian groups are more Zionist than others. It is just a fact. I also suspect that different degrees of Zionist ideals exist in Israel as some are not happy with their original homeland they would take away the homeland of other peoples and make it their own because according to them Israel should have the borders as per the land mass of the Israel in scripture--which I understand was not the intent of the Balfour Declaration.
I felt that Art had somewhat directed his question in my general direction because the word (pejorative) was in my post, and if you follow my link you will find it used extensively in that thread. So I gave my opinion in what I hoped was a wishy-washy enough fashion to indicate that it was an opinion.

I do think that it is often used in a pejorative fashion today. That being accusatively or derogatorily in the context of the statement.

Unlike purely pejorative terms, which are usually initiated by someone opposed to an idea or group as an overly simplified misrepresentation, Zionist was, I believe, first used about 120 yrs. ago as a self-description. I can't say that I recall having heard it as a self-description recently; others may have a completely different experience. If I had heard it used often in that way, I'm sure my opinion would be different.
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  #44  
Old 12-07-2017, 09:07 PM
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Netanyahu Applauds President Trump for his recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. I'm just saying.
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  #45  
Old 12-07-2017, 09:14 PM
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Somebody needs to tell all them decedents of immigrants from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, and Syria the facts that they are not descended from a so called Palestinian people, so they don't waste so much energy throwing rocks the next few weeks, but I guess it will be the same in the southwest USA 50 years from now. This is a whole lot of to do about nothing. He stated a naturally known fact. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, but then again we are dealing with a world of folks who can't tell male from female and even debate those basic, simple facts.
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  #46  
Old 12-07-2017, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hummerpoo View Post
I felt that Art had somewhat directed his question in my general direction because the word (pejorative) was in my post, and if you follow my link you will find it used extensively in that thread. So I gave my opinion in what I hoped was a wishy-washy enough fashion to indicate that it was an opinion.

I do think that it is often used in a pejorative fashion today. That being accusatively or derogatorily in the context of the statement.

Unlike purely pejorative terms, which are usually initiated by someone opposed to an idea or group as an overly simplified misrepresentation, Zionist was, I believe, first used about 120 yrs. ago as a self-description. I can't say that I recall having heard it as a self-description recently; others may have a completely different experience. If I had heard it used often in that way, I'm sure my opinion would be different.
You explained yourself well and that's they way I see it too. I think many words that are now perceived as pejorative didn't start out that way. When the opposing team (if you will), use it enough, it can become perjorative just by perception.
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  #47  
Old 12-07-2017, 10:09 PM
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Some of the posters here have been given really bum info. "Zionist" and Israeli are not necessarily the same thing, but both identify Jews who want to live in their homeland.

The nation of Israel was (reluctantly) recognized by the (then) new United Nations because, while they were dithering with the "Question of relocating European Jews," a bunch of Jews from Europe and the Middle East took control of the ancient kingdoms of Judah and Israel, displacing almost 100,000 Arabian, Bedouin, Egyptian and Persian refugees from the middle eastern fighting during WWII. The UK had temporary control of the area but were unable to stop the Jews from settling in and setting up their homes. Notably, one of the reasons Jews were so quickly successful was that many of the Jews were born and raised there and offered other Jews temporary housing on their land.

It is also important to recognize that the land now including Israel, the Gaza Strip, and the East Bank was in the late 1940s mostly abandoned. Outside of Jerusalem, about 70,000 Jews, and up to 125,000 ethnic Arab Muslims did live in the the area before WWII, but good figures from after the war are hard to determine. Most of the Arab Muslims who lived there before the Jews took over chose to remain, they and their descendants live in peace as citizens of Israel. It is clear that those who ended up in temporary camps in 1948 and 49 had come to the area no earlier than 1944.

The label "Zionist" was applied to those fighters who argued for complete removal of those 85,000 to 97,000 (Israeli count vs. UN count) refugees who refused to live with Jews. The Zionists lost the argument. The mostly Muslim, intensely anti Jew, refugees were resettled in temporary camps near Gaza and along the East bank of the Jordan river. The camps were only to remain open until the UN removed those people and returned them to their countries of origin. Unsurprisingly, the UN failed, and later blamed Israel for the failure of the UN to send the refugees home.

The refugees own countries REFUSED to accept any of the refugees! Egypt insisted that the Muslims who left Egypt during WWII gave up any right to return when they ran away. Saudi Arabia said their own Bedouin peoples denied that the Bedouins in Israeli camps were actually from Saudi Arabia. The fledgling governments in what we called Iraq and Iran said none of their people were "missing."

In reality the anti Jew dictatorships in Egypt, Syria, Iran and Lebanon, plus the Kingdoms of Jordan and Saudi Arabia expected the refugee camps to bankrupt the new state of Israel, distract the Israelis from national defense, and be a source of spies and terror within the new Jewish state when they had built up enough military power to attack and destroy Israel. That plan almost worked. The refugees are spies and terrorists. The other nations did build up their military and they did attack Israel - three times. But they lost every time.

Amazingly, the fewer than 100,000 unwanted refugees from 1949, all who rejected living in Israel, have by some miracle of Mohammid's 9 year old bride, or by special grace from the Alla of all suicide bombers, become in the 21st century, more than 6,000,000 "Palestinian" natives seeking only to regain their ancient homeland!

Don't believe all the hype, lies and propaganda put out by "haters." I am a Christian from more than 12 generations of Christian Americans. But I also can read history, check facts, discern CensoredCensored, and discriminate between fact and fiction. Israel is NOT some evil empire. They did not "steal" the land from "millions" of natives. The "Palestinians" are not the "original" residents of the land.
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  #48  
Old 12-07-2017, 10:31 PM
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Interesting read from Georgiabob. In that respect I can see why they aren't Zionist in that they live in unity with others in Israel.
We could say that Israel isn't just a Jewish nation but a nation of many.

Then we have this other definition of Zionism which perhaps labeled by some as Christian Zionism as it relates to how one views Israel from a Biblical perspective.

In other words was the mystery revealed by Paul in that Gentiles were once excluded from the Commonwealth of Israel, having now been adopted into the nourishing Jewish tree root, spiritual or physical?

If physical then Zionism.
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  #49  
Old 12-08-2017, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
Interesting read from Georgiabob. In that respect I can see why they aren't Zionist in that they live in unity with others in Israel.
We could say that Israel isn't just a Jewish nation but a nation of many.

Then we have this other definition of Zionism which perhaps labeled by some as Christian Zionism as it relates to how one views Israel from a Biblical perspective.

In other words was the mystery revealed by Paul in that Gentiles were once excluded from the Commonwealth of Israel, having now been adopted into the nourishing Jewish tree root, spiritual or physical?

If physical then Zionism.
Good points. I find it very interesting that some Christians today claim Zionism to be christian and some that it can be definitely of the world. As Christians there is perhaps no more better time for judgement as today-- as to the individual's stand, a yes or no on the issue.
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Old 12-08-2017, 08:52 AM
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And some Christians believe Zion will be Independence, Missouri in the good old USA!

Oh well, to each his own. I guess it's hard to not let our religious beliefs carry over into our political beliefs.
I'm not sure my feelings about physical Israel would be the same if my beliefs were not what they are.

Could it be two imaginary groups fighting over the same piece of land?
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