Welcome Guest!
Winter is coming for the United Methodist Church.
- Thread starter centerpin fan
- Start date
Bobby Jackson
Banned
Sad.I have enjoyed a lifetime of worship in several different UMC churches...odd that they fight so strongly against any homosexuality but yet have SO MANY (to many) female clergy that appear to possibly be Lezbian?
hobbs27
Senior Member
It is sad, but it doesn't take a huge crowd.
"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."
"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."
Well said Hobbs.
Buck Nasty
Senior Member
Interesting take from someone on the "progressive side" of things.
The UMC, and its leaders, have brought this on themselves. You can only kick a can down the street for so long before it falls in the sewer. My wife and I are really considering leaving the UMC. I have been following this debacle for a while, and it will be interesting to see what comes of the WCA.
The UMC, and its leaders, have brought this on themselves. You can only kick a can down the street for so long before it falls in the sewer. My wife and I are really considering leaving the UMC. I have been following this debacle for a while, and it will be interesting to see what comes of the WCA.
NE GA Pappy
Mr. Pappy
Popquiz.
What is the mainline protestant denomination with the most growth in the US?
What is the mainline protestant denomination with the most growth in the US?
centerpin fan
Senior Member
My fast and dirty research says "American Baptist":
http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/chapter-1-the-changing-religious-composition-of-the-u-s/
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
In the grand picture of the Church from the beginning, there have been many splits. Maybe all of these splits were God's way of letting liberals worship in liberal churches and conservatives worship in conservative churches.
This was obtained by the creation of mainline and evangelical churches as pointed out in Centerpin's link. Southern Baptist are considered evangelical and the United Methodist are considered mainline.
The Methodist have maybe stayed together with the least splits over time and the Baptist have had many splits. These splits and we are just looking at Protestants. Maybe we shouldn't look at them as divisions but different paths to a final "Unity."
Southern Baptist are also loosing members. Is it also a split of the two political parties we have in the US? Have Churches gone the way of aligning themselves Republican & Democrat?
I guess the bottom line is maybe the changes are good. There is no use worshiping with a group who has different beliefs than you do. Politically or religiously.
Georgia and Coffee County has a history associated with the Holiness Baptist leaving the Baptist. Eventually even that group split into two. The Coffee County tie is they both have campgrounds there.
The Baptist have many sub-groups under the Baptist umbrella.
Interesting among the Protestants is the biggest decline is within the "mainline" churches vs the "evangelical."
Each individual feels it is God himself guiding him to the correct path of worship. Perhaps it is within the bounds of that individuals mindset.
This was obtained by the creation of mainline and evangelical churches as pointed out in Centerpin's link. Southern Baptist are considered evangelical and the United Methodist are considered mainline.
The Methodist have maybe stayed together with the least splits over time and the Baptist have had many splits. These splits and we are just looking at Protestants. Maybe we shouldn't look at them as divisions but different paths to a final "Unity."
Southern Baptist are also loosing members. Is it also a split of the two political parties we have in the US? Have Churches gone the way of aligning themselves Republican & Democrat?
I guess the bottom line is maybe the changes are good. There is no use worshiping with a group who has different beliefs than you do. Politically or religiously.
Georgia and Coffee County has a history associated with the Holiness Baptist leaving the Baptist. Eventually even that group split into two. The Coffee County tie is they both have campgrounds there.
The Baptist have many sub-groups under the Baptist umbrella.
Interesting among the Protestants is the biggest decline is within the "mainline" churches vs the "evangelical."
Each individual feels it is God himself guiding him to the correct path of worship. Perhaps it is within the bounds of that individuals mindset.
centerpin fan
Senior Member
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
If we can make God's salvation more appealing by offering more paths to that salvation, why not?
Whose to say these various paths aren't from God to start with?
Regardless, if we offer coffee and rock music to sandal wearing young people, as an alternative, is that necessarily a bad thing?
The bottom line is one only has to believe Jesus died for their sins to receive God's salvation. The only way to God is through Jesus and the only way to Jesus is through God.
All the rest of Christianity is based on how deep we want to address the "Legalism" part of Christianity by how we worship.
One guy wants to wash another's feet and another believer wants to drink water for communion.
One man believes God became Jesus and another believes Jesus has always been with God. The old Oneness vs Trinity thing.
I think it's OK as long as the various paths to God stay within the realm of "through" Jesus. Realizing that also to get through Jesus has to also come from God.
Whose to say these various paths aren't from God to start with?
Regardless, if we offer coffee and rock music to sandal wearing young people, as an alternative, is that necessarily a bad thing?
The bottom line is one only has to believe Jesus died for their sins to receive God's salvation. The only way to God is through Jesus and the only way to Jesus is through God.
All the rest of Christianity is based on how deep we want to address the "Legalism" part of Christianity by how we worship.
One guy wants to wash another's feet and another believer wants to drink water for communion.
One man believes God became Jesus and another believes Jesus has always been with God. The old Oneness vs Trinity thing.
I think it's OK as long as the various paths to God stay within the realm of "through" Jesus. Realizing that also to get through Jesus has to also come from God.
amoore28
Senior Member
If everyone would stick to teaching exactly what the bible says and not adding man's emotions and feelings into everything then the worldwide church would be fine. Churches in america today want to water down everything to make it more appealing to the world but I think that pastors need to stick to the word of God as written and not add all this extra crap like the pharisees. Being homosexual is an sin in the eyes of God. Thats what the bible says. God loves gay people like any kind of other sinner but hates what they do. The bible says to repent from your sins and love the lord with all your heart. How can a church say it is okay to be gay but saying its not okay to murder. Both are sins and are punishable with death and eternal seperationfrom God if not cleansed with the blood in repentance of christ jesus.
GunnSmokeer
Senior Member
Marietta
The former pastor of First United Methodist Church of Marietta, GA, Rev. Dr. Charles Sineath, had to leave his congregation when he opposed the national U.M.C. conference's many resolutions that called for the Church to have openly homosexual and lesbian pastors, and to do gay weddings.
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/06/24/u...e-splits-a-methodist-church-near-atlanta.html
I've heard Pastor Sineath speak a few times as a guest pastor delivering the sermon at my Baptist church.
CLARIFICATION: Sineath didn't say anything about gay rights or the moral decline of UMC during any of his visits to our church. His sermon was completely mainstream and not controversial in any way.
EDITED TO ADD: It looks like the "National" Methodist leadership still takes the position that homosexuality is a sin that would keep somebody from being gay-married in the church or becoming a pastor (while they're welcome to attend services and still deserve to be treated with respect, not scorn).
However, various regional conferences want to take a pro-gay position and have been increasingly pushing the issue, with various degrees of success at the local level.
The former pastor of First United Methodist Church of Marietta, GA, Rev. Dr. Charles Sineath, had to leave his congregation when he opposed the national U.M.C. conference's many resolutions that called for the Church to have openly homosexual and lesbian pastors, and to do gay weddings.
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/06/24/u...e-splits-a-methodist-church-near-atlanta.html
I've heard Pastor Sineath speak a few times as a guest pastor delivering the sermon at my Baptist church.
CLARIFICATION: Sineath didn't say anything about gay rights or the moral decline of UMC during any of his visits to our church. His sermon was completely mainstream and not controversial in any way.
EDITED TO ADD: It looks like the "National" Methodist leadership still takes the position that homosexuality is a sin that would keep somebody from being gay-married in the church or becoming a pastor (while they're welcome to attend services and still deserve to be treated with respect, not scorn).
However, various regional conferences want to take a pro-gay position and have been increasingly pushing the issue, with various degrees of success at the local level.
GeorgiaBob
Senior Member
The argument among the "politicians" of the UMC, and between the "progressives" and "traditionalists," is NOT about the local church but it does impact every congregation. And it is not about whether any individual is invited to worship, or membership, in the UMC. It is not, and never was, about loving or hating anyone for any reason. It is a battle of whether to allow "politically correct" acceptance of homosexuals and persons who avow "perversions" into consecrated and ordained leadership - or - to follow Biblical guidance. Really, that is the whole fight.
Many mainline protestant denominations have - at their "executive" levels decided to ordain, admitted, practicing homosexuals to serve as clergy. The primary difference between these churches and the United Methodists is that with most of the other denominations the local church picks it's own pastor and can therefore choose whether they will be led by a homosexual, or a "transsomething," or not. In the United Methodist Church, the Bishop tells the clergy where to go, and the local church has little say in the matter.
That means - in Lutheran, American Baptist, Presbyterian churches - the congregation can choose to NOT hire a homosexual pastor as their spiritual leader if they believe it would be bad for their community of faith, or the individual would not "fit in." It has still been a very difficult two decades for most of the other "mainline" protestant churches. There have been many people walking away from churches because the "search committee" picked one way or another. It has hurt most major protestant denominations.
Methodists are slow to change, and if they eventually do make that decision, some predict that as many as half of the US membership will leave the UMC. It is a painful issue no matter what side a member takes. And it is more critical to Methodist churches because UMC congregations do not have the option of choosing their own pastor.
Personally, I think that if we want to proclaim the Bible is an inspired and Holy book written to guide our lives toward a closer relationship with God, then we are going to have to admit that the Book does condemn the practice of homosexuality. (Even if we think Paul was very picky and strident about a lot of things that don't seem very important from our distant view.) We also have to accept that every one of us is a sinner, prayerfully saved by grace, and no better that any other of God's children.
We must welcome all who would come into God's sanctuaries, love all, and share God's grace with all. That includes guys who put on dresses and lipstick as well as ladies who like ladies better than smelly guys and guys who prefer the company of other guys. We all get included, the only thing we are really fighting about is whether we want our leaders to follow the same rules Christian leaders have tried to follow for 2,000 years. It promises to be a bloody and hurtful fight.
Many mainline protestant denominations have - at their "executive" levels decided to ordain, admitted, practicing homosexuals to serve as clergy. The primary difference between these churches and the United Methodists is that with most of the other denominations the local church picks it's own pastor and can therefore choose whether they will be led by a homosexual, or a "transsomething," or not. In the United Methodist Church, the Bishop tells the clergy where to go, and the local church has little say in the matter.
That means - in Lutheran, American Baptist, Presbyterian churches - the congregation can choose to NOT hire a homosexual pastor as their spiritual leader if they believe it would be bad for their community of faith, or the individual would not "fit in." It has still been a very difficult two decades for most of the other "mainline" protestant churches. There have been many people walking away from churches because the "search committee" picked one way or another. It has hurt most major protestant denominations.
Methodists are slow to change, and if they eventually do make that decision, some predict that as many as half of the US membership will leave the UMC. It is a painful issue no matter what side a member takes. And it is more critical to Methodist churches because UMC congregations do not have the option of choosing their own pastor.
Personally, I think that if we want to proclaim the Bible is an inspired and Holy book written to guide our lives toward a closer relationship with God, then we are going to have to admit that the Book does condemn the practice of homosexuality. (Even if we think Paul was very picky and strident about a lot of things that don't seem very important from our distant view.) We also have to accept that every one of us is a sinner, prayerfully saved by grace, and no better that any other of God's children.
We must welcome all who would come into God's sanctuaries, love all, and share God's grace with all. That includes guys who put on dresses and lipstick as well as ladies who like ladies better than smelly guys and guys who prefer the company of other guys. We all get included, the only thing we are really fighting about is whether we want our leaders to follow the same rules Christian leaders have tried to follow for 2,000 years. It promises to be a bloody and hurtful fight.
NE GA Pappy
Mr. Pappy
I justed finished reading the book by J. Cahn, "The Paradigm"
on page 230 he makes the following statement, that I think sums up the problem, not only with UMC, but most churches in America today..
"In the days when immorality becomes a culture's ruling principle, the temptation for God's people will be to soften their stands, to bend under the pressure, and to compromise with the dark. But those who do so will disqualify themselves from being used of God as they were meant to be used. The righteous must instead commit to living as did Elijah and to resist all temptation to compromise and all pressure to soften their stand. Rather, they must move in the opposite direction. When the dark grows increasing darker, it is then that the lights must grow increasingly bright. When evil goes from bad to worse, the righteous must go from good to great."
I believe we are in that time frame where "good will be called evil, and evil, good". God is calling us to be a separate people, one that stands for right.
Thoughts????
on page 230 he makes the following statement, that I think sums up the problem, not only with UMC, but most churches in America today..
"In the days when immorality becomes a culture's ruling principle, the temptation for God's people will be to soften their stands, to bend under the pressure, and to compromise with the dark. But those who do so will disqualify themselves from being used of God as they were meant to be used. The righteous must instead commit to living as did Elijah and to resist all temptation to compromise and all pressure to soften their stand. Rather, they must move in the opposite direction. When the dark grows increasing darker, it is then that the lights must grow increasingly bright. When evil goes from bad to worse, the righteous must go from good to great."
I believe we are in that time frame where "good will be called evil, and evil, good". God is calling us to be a separate people, one that stands for right.
Thoughts????
GeorgiaBob
Senior Member
Dang Pappy, you be one bright candle on a dark, cold night.
NE GA Pappy
Mr. Pappy
bump to see if anyone has any thoughts on Cahn's statement
Gaswamp
Senior Member
GeorgiaBob and Pappy good posts
And there, in a nutshell, is why I don't trust organized religion very far. That and the fact that I worked for the UMC for six years and saw the dirty administrative politics, greed, and embezllement from the inside. Why not keep some of that money in the community?
I think churches work best when they serve the local community that they exist in instead of using the local community as a revenue source to pay some administrative convention.
Miguel Cervantes
Jedi Master
This schism has been brewing for a few years now. It won't be the end of the Methodist Church, but an opportunity for a division between Traditional (pew warmers) and a more progressive direction such as the Baptist Church has taken. 
Personally, I welcome the change.
Personally, I welcome the change.
hobbs27
Senior Member
It absolutely breaks my heart to read what your saying about the UMC and all other churches.
Because I know you're right, and there's nothing I can do about it. Organized religion is like Govt, it's just inherently corrupt, no matter how nice the guys in charge seem.
Similar threads
