Throwback
Chief Big Taw
theyre only legal to shoot 50% of the time state wide.
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Got a bunch of culls this year
- Thread starter BassHunter25
- Start date
theyre only legal to shoot 50% of the time state wide.
BassHunter25
Senior Member
Interesting, I finished with that same degree. Taking a few inferior or " genetically" less than what you desire animals from the herd will not make a difference. Hunt how you want , take the deer you want and most importantly put one of these deer in front of a child so they can enjoy hunting as well.
Interesting, how can you say taking any deer from the herd won't make a difference? Every deer you take out of a herd makes a difference. Nub bucks being the least impact but still lowers the number of deer.
But honestly I've let a couple of these bucks walk at 3.5 but nobody is seen them in daylight since. I hunt with my 10 yr old and 7 yr old 90 percent of
The time now and hope we see one! Also like like to brings young hunters and usually try to get them on these bucks.
Jim Boyd
Senior Member
Photo
Bass Hunter
I have read and loved most of your posts.
I fear you are off on some of your age estimates, though.
You list this buck as "old".
Would you be offended if I used this photo and did an "age this buck" poll on some of the other hunting sites - sort of like QDMA does monthly?
I see the date is last year, is that correct - or is this photo recent. Knowing the month the photo was taken helps in the neck assessment as it relates to age.
I see legs that still look long, a belly with little sag and he does not appear to have that massive front heavy look that 4.5 to 5.5 (or older) bucks have.
Not picking a fight, trying to help educate us all.
Thanks !
Jim
Bass Hunter
I have read and loved most of your posts.
I fear you are off on some of your age estimates, though.
You list this buck as "old".
Would you be offended if I used this photo and did an "age this buck" poll on some of the other hunting sites - sort of like QDMA does monthly?
I see the date is last year, is that correct - or is this photo recent. Knowing the month the photo was taken helps in the neck assessment as it relates to age.
I see legs that still look long, a belly with little sag and he does not appear to have that massive front heavy look that 4.5 to 5.5 (or older) bucks have.
Not picking a fight, trying to help educate us all.
Thanks !
Jim
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BassHunter25
Senior Member
The Date is correct
That's fine Jim I'd be happy to see what others think. I will tell you though I have photos of this buck from 2015 and I think 2014 as well.
The bucks at our property have been really tough to age by photo. They seem to vary in body size. I tend to not put an age on them unless I have several years of them on camera. I really dont' know the age of this six except I have him on cam for three years and he looks exactly the same, but appears to be smaller this season. I even have some good videos of this buck also.
from 2015
https://youtu.be/sGJD6Sg95vo
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Jim Boyd
Senior Member
I know you do exhaustive studies and appreciate them.
I am sure there are exceptions to the rules (about how bucks look as they age) but in general animals (like humans) are marked by the passage of time in fairly identifiable ways.
I don't doubt your record keeping but I wonder if you might be getting fooled by the sheer numbers of bucks you have - and are mistaking one for another?
We have (and this is a good thing) on our place in SC an incredible number of what ALL appear to be 2.5 eight pointers in the 100" range and I swear you can't tell those jokers apart.
In reality, the same issue is true on the place I have in Illinois but it is 120" ten pointers. There are a good many of them and they look like they came from the same mold.
I offer these comments simply to open the door for a discussion about being SURE you are looking at the same deer each time.
Good work and good discussions!
Jim
I am sure there are exceptions to the rules (about how bucks look as they age) but in general animals (like humans) are marked by the passage of time in fairly identifiable ways.
I don't doubt your record keeping but I wonder if you might be getting fooled by the sheer numbers of bucks you have - and are mistaking one for another?
We have (and this is a good thing) on our place in SC an incredible number of what ALL appear to be 2.5 eight pointers in the 100" range and I swear you can't tell those jokers apart.
In reality, the same issue is true on the place I have in Illinois but it is 120" ten pointers. There are a good many of them and they look like they came from the same mold.
I offer these comments simply to open the door for a discussion about being SURE you are looking at the same deer each time.
Good work and good discussions!
Jim
Jim Boyd
Senior Member
spurrs and racks
Banned
these two bucks in the last of this thread
are old.....how old?....who knows you need a jaw bone.
From another way of looking at things, there might be a combo here of a heavy deer population, poor genetics and more nutrition needed.
The racks look thin on all these bucks, there is a reason for it.
s&r
are old.....how old?....who knows you need a jaw bone.
From another way of looking at things, there might be a combo here of a heavy deer population, poor genetics and more nutrition needed.
The racks look thin on all these bucks, there is a reason for it.
s&r
humdandy
Banned
Got a friend of mine that kills every spike he sees......they are all cull deer.......spike will never be anything but a spike he says.......
I wonder how we ever grow deer with big antlers? Are they just born with 150 racks?
Maybe we should kill all bucks with less than 8 points! They are inferior deer and need to be killed....
spurrs and racks
Banned
I got a friend
lives in Lowndes county just outside of Valdosta.
They grew one from wild and tour with him until he was 11 years old.....
He was a spike at 1 1/2 years old.....
Now he regressed but at his prime 7 1/2 and 8 1/2 he was 190"
s&r
lives in Lowndes county just outside of Valdosta.
They grew one from wild and tour with him until he was 11 years old.....
He was a spike at 1 1/2 years old.....
Now he regressed but at his prime 7 1/2 and 8 1/2 he was 190"
s&r
All I hear is the originator was looking for everybody to agree with him, and now anyone who uses statistics is told they're self righteous experts! If we just knew you were the expert nobody would've needed reply. I think what they're all saying is genetics go considerably further a doe has a 10 pt daddy. Look at human population, same parents but we do not look similar to our brothers and sisters. Further, if you cull these bucks another set of bucks will undoubtedly move in. The research shows that without a fence there is no control of a breeding population. Feed and nutrient rich soil is the best help you have to grow bigger horns.
Mexican Squealer
Senior Member
seems to think he is the only one who has spent time running cams and managing property as well. Funny stuff.
BassHunter25
Senior Member
Jim I agree with your statements and I typically don't guess unless I know.
I will admit I may be a little thrown off by this six point because of some pics I'm using in 2014 that I really not 100 percent on. If I throw those out I still believe that buck is no less than 4 in 2016. Now that not really old but still mature. But I'm waiting on a better set of pics from this season will maybe help.
But I save a lot of pics of tiny details that help me identify these deer. I look for little nicks in the ears throat patches. I have some one and two year old bucks that I would never know were the same by just looking at the racks. Another way that helps is at the end of the season when they group back up they tend to be in the same groups in summer usually with a couple more added. But usually the bucks I say I know about I can show proof. Now I can only say I have that big six in 2015 and 2016 100 percent right now. Honestly it's unlikely that he is younger than 4 in 2015 based on body sizes of most our deer.
I believe we do suffer from poor soil and nutrients in our area. Genetics are 50/50. I have seen some great genetics and some very disappointing. We do what we can to help with this but as always money is a limiting factor. If it wasn't I probably wouldn't be hunting here.
I will admit I may be a little thrown off by this six point because of some pics I'm using in 2014 that I really not 100 percent on. If I throw those out I still believe that buck is no less than 4 in 2016. Now that not really old but still mature. But I'm waiting on a better set of pics from this season will maybe help.
But I save a lot of pics of tiny details that help me identify these deer. I look for little nicks in the ears throat patches. I have some one and two year old bucks that I would never know were the same by just looking at the racks. Another way that helps is at the end of the season when they group back up they tend to be in the same groups in summer usually with a couple more added. But usually the bucks I say I know about I can show proof. Now I can only say I have that big six in 2015 and 2016 100 percent right now. Honestly it's unlikely that he is younger than 4 in 2015 based on body sizes of most our deer.
I believe we do suffer from poor soil and nutrients in our area. Genetics are 50/50. I have seen some great genetics and some very disappointing. We do what we can to help with this but as always money is a limiting factor. If it wasn't I probably wouldn't be hunting here.
Got a friend of mine that kills every spike he sees......they are all cull deer.......spike will never be anything but a spike he says.......
I wonder how we ever grow deer with big antlers? Are they just born with 150 racks?
Maybe we should kill all bucks with less than 8 points! They are inferior deer and need to be killed....
I don't believe in "cull" deer, and I don't buy the spike theory, although it is certainly true with some. I have personally killed a couple of dominant, 4-5 year old cowhorn spikes with massive-based spikes well more than a foot long, both in the same area. My buddy killed a couple more of them. Our trophy hunter friend didn't want to waste a tag on them. They tasted fine.
Most spikes are just 1 1/2 year old bucks that will eventually grow racks. But, if I was a trophy hunter, which I'm not-I would figure that a 1 1/2 year old buck with an 6 or 8-point basket rack is likely gonna grow into a much bigger-antlered buck eventually than the 1 1/2 year old who is wearing little goathorn spikes. And the lack of brow tines often seems to hold true as a buck ages. Most 2 1/2 year old six-pointers seem to tend to become 4 or 5 year old six points.
BassHunter25
Senior Member
The original post was somewhat of a trick. Sorry.
When someone offers facts or opinions I believe I have either agreed or offered a reason why I disagree. The original post wasn't really a question though was it?
The main reason for the post is because I don't agree 100 percent with studies about culling deer with "inferior" genetics is a waste of time.
I do agree that it is futile to think that I could change it drastically, but it baffles me when someone says it won't make any difference.
The laws of nature tell the male species to spread its genes. That's what they are programmed to do. They can't do that if they are deceased. Do I need to site studies if this behavior? Also managing a herd to keep it healthy is what hunting is all about. So technically every deer we kill is a cull. So if by removing any deer from a herd can effect it overall then surely it can also effect rack genetics?
Now taking an "inferior" racked buck out may only help for a season or two while a "better" racked buck takes his place for a while. Then you may be back at square one a few years later. But it helped for a few years.
I offered counter arguments like the antler restriction counties that seem to have seen more large mature six points because they can't be taken. A few chimed in.
I understand there are studies, but these studies have a lot of factors and really don't cover the details of how and what they culled. In fact they are in larger scale properties.
Hopefully this clears up my intent. Perhaps we can just agree to disagree. I feel like I have some good valid arguments and at the same time others tend to just ignore them.
And this is just a good debate on a subject. And I will
End by saying I am certainly the one going out on a limb countering "the studies" and if anyone will be completely wrong it will be me!!!!
If you think a buck has reached his potential or close enough to it at say age 4.5 or older by all means kill him. He's a trophy regardless of what's on his head at that age.
BassHunter25
Senior Member
I agree with this as well. I see loads of spikes a year and have never seen one older than 2 on any of our properties. They are usually just a early or late born buck.
j_seph
Senior Member
What about the offspring from the does they bred last year?
What about the offspring of the does their dad bred last year. If they are 3 1/2 you will not see their true potential until 5 1/2 - 6 1/2
What about the offspring of the does their dad bred last year. If they are 3 1/2 you will not see their true potential until 5 1/2 - 6 1/2
BassHunter25
Senior Member
Sure that's a problem. But the yearlings aren't breeding much and you have a new mature buck running younger bucks off. Many factors depending on the property and buck to doe ratio. And I can't say it's true at all properties but I have come to the realization at our property these deer aren't changing much from what they are at 3.5. I've been patiently letting these poor looking three year olds walk with my fingers crossed. And now this has been the result is a bunch of mature six and seven points. (4+) yrs old. In the past I've been telling people to let them walk and now realizing they didn't get any better in some cases worse. So this is actually a case of trying to get bigger racks has back fired. Which may be a flaw in some of the studies. Where had this been public land or somewhere that most 2 and certainly 3 ye old deer get shot. The results might look different and even better.
Buckstop
Senior Member
This...a mature buck is a mature buck. If you are happy with taking him as a mature buck, take him. He is no less craftier than a 140" 10 pt. There's no gray matter in the horns anyway. Bucks just gain wariness that comes with age. If he doesn't meet your standards pass on him, unless you have too many and need to cull overall numbers to increase nutrition.
As for genetics, his genes are already out of the bag..so to speak. Already in the herd in the does and bucks conceived by his parents and their parents as well as any does he has already bred. Those genes are all around already. In some cases they may be recessive and never seen, other times not.
j_seph
Senior Member
i shot a 7 point couple years ago, he was aged 5 1/2 had good mass, poor tine length but when he came behind a doe there was no doubt he was older than his racked looked with his big body. Sort of makes one wonder. I screwed up about 4 year ago on same property and shot a 2 1/2 year old 8 point that was bigger than him rack wise
