Christianity soon to be 2nd

ky55

Senior Member
Do you think humanity should do away with guilt and shame? Is there something wrong with it?

Only if you allow an "imaginary friend" to be the cause.
 

swampstalker24

Senior Member
God gives us free will not to choose to be with Him in heaven when you die.

It's not going to be a picnic to be apart from the presence of God, which is he11. God doesn't want you there so He made a way that you wouldn't have to spend eternity apart from Him.

All these years and you're still making posts like this, it makes one think you're not listening.

So string i take it you dont buy into the fire and brimstine teachings, the eternal suffering, and endless pain concept of h3ll? But rather it simply being "apart from god"? And he doesnt want us there yet created the place and allows us to chose a path the will ultimately lead there?

Thats equitable to a parent not wanting their children to drink alcohol yet they decide to build a liquor store in the back yard with flashing neon lights and a well lit path. Something only an irrational being would do.
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
God gives us free will not to choose to be with Him in heaven when you die.

It's not going to be a picnic to be apart from the presence of God, which is he11. God doesn't want you there so He made a way that you wouldn't have to spend eternity apart from Him.

All these years and you're still making posts like this, it makes one think you're not listening.
String, I listen. What I hear is no different from the believers in other gods.
The people telling me these things have not died and come back to tell me all about their time after death. The people telling me these things do not have a clue to what they are talking about based off of experience. All they can truthfully tell me is based off of their own individual hopes and needs which are fueled by ancient stories designed to take advantage of a person's need to deal with their own mortality. You happen to believe in the one that suits you best, or the one that is most popular in your upbringing. Does anyone study them all and pick based off of factual evidence.?They start with one, swap and switch denominations within until they find the one that best suits their own needs and roll with as if it is the one true version.

I do not need or want to take your word for it. I lived that life already. I was fooling myself by listening to others, I was fooling myself waiting for a god to talk to me, I am now honest with myself.

All these years and you are still making claims that you are unable to back up. You still tell me things about an unknowable invisible creature that you have never met. I listen, but WHY would I take that seriously ?
 

Israel

BANNED
Why do we talk to each other...at all?
It appears whatever Jesus you had, were "told" by others to believe in, and about whom you are now "honest with yourself", well, perhaps your complaint about him, about that (as widespread in tenor and substance as I hear from the "most of you") experience is its insufficiency. His insufficiency. "Its"...insufficiency.

Of course I can't make you...or anyone, even myself for that matter "make you to see" the Jesus I know...though it be thrown as challenge often. And as you know, to many others. "Produce this 'god' for us...for our judgement, our discerning".

This has everything, from the outset, wrong in its matter of being. Man is the product. if you really want the god who is producible from man...I don't believe you (or any other here, or even in the upstairs as you guys say) have to think long on that foolishness. Who really wants the god a man can "produce" at will? Can force to "show himself"?

Any and all of that is so wrongheaded as to be laughable. Oh...a man can say...can plead...can with the utmost earnestness in word...speak..."no really...really...I would believe if you could just summon him up, or by some means present to me a way he can be summoned...made to "me" sufficiently present in being (as you say he is to you) that I might...believe" This is what I hear, almost without exception...always. "Make known to us...this god you have". Or, at the very least (and equally contrariwise, at the very most) you say you have.

No he is not a performing monkey. Nor is he "what is had by men", he is the haver. He has the man, not vice versa.

Yet, in that, I hear, despite all the resistance (or what may want to appear so) a plea, a calling out...(Back to the original question...why do we even talk to each other, at all?) for a sufficiency.


"I was once a believer...but I found out it was all hooey" "I am now honest with myself" "I saw all there was to see about this Jesus thing, and then, I peeked behind the curtain".

To that, all I can say is...no wonder. A brother has told me, and yes, I trust him...that he saw the possibility of "another" Jesus being preached. He even accepted to himself he was not exempted from that possibility of "preaching another Jesus, another gospel". He went so far as to say that even seeming "heavenly beings" could endorse a such....that is...coming to preach "another Jesus". A Jesus, from where I sit now, would be something of an insufficiency.

So, I don't know what "Jesus" you had, see/saw or think you know about...even now. But if you think that He is summonable (who will ascend to bring him down, or descend to bring him up?) at the will of man (mine or any other)...then yes "that" Jesus would be, by very nature of concept...insufficient.

So yes...I accept you as being honest, now accept my honest appraisal (if you can)...the very "best" of what you have seen of the Jesus you have seen...is insufficient...to you. You are asking for the "unifying equation" of all things, and haven't seen it, nor been able to find it produced through any man you know, or have ever spoken to. I believe you.

But all that points to only one thing that I have already (and not only myself...but of many others to whom you have spoken, and have spoken to you) accepted...their own insufficiency to "make God appear" to men.

So yes, to say in whatever manner, in whatever words, in whatever motive (and chemicals would rather be at a loss for explaining their bonds) "your God is insufficient to me" is of no matter. We have already accepted our own insufficiency to "explain Him"...so all we really do hear is "I find you...insufficient" to show this God. Which of course...is perfect.


For we do not preach ourselves (as sufficient to anything)...but Christ.
 

drippin' rock

Senior Member
Why do we talk to each other...at all?
It appears whatever Jesus you had, were "told" by others to believe in, and about whom you are now "honest with yourself", well, perhaps your complaint about him, about that (as widespread in tenor and substance as I hear from the "most of you") experience is its insufficiency. His insufficiency. "Its"...insufficiency.

Of course I can't make you...or anyone, even myself for that matter "make you to see" the Jesus I know...though it be thrown as challenge often. And as you know, to many others. "Produce this 'god' for us...for our judgement, our discerning".

This has everything, from the outset, wrong in its matter of being. Man is the product. if you really want the god who is producible from man...I don't believe you (or any other here, or even in the upstairs as you guys say) have to think long on that foolishness. Who really wants the god a man can "produce" at will? Can force to "show himself"?

Any and all of that is so wrongheaded as to be laughable. Oh...a man can say...can plead...can with the utmost earnestness in word...speak..."no really...really...I would believe if you could just summon him up, or by some means present to me a way he can be summoned...made to "me" sufficiently present in being (as you say he is to you) that I might...believe" This is what I hear, almost without exception...always. "Make known to us...this god you have". Or, at the very least (and equally contrariwise, at the very most) you say you have.

No he is not a performing monkey. Nor is he "what is had by men", he is the haver. He has the man, not vice versa.

Yet, in that, I hear, despite all the resistance (or what may want to appear so) a plea, a calling out...(Back to the original question...why do we even talk to each other, at all?) for a sufficiency.


"I was once a believer...but I found out it was all hooey" "I am now honest with myself" "I saw all there was to see about this Jesus thing, and then, I peeked behind the curtain".

To that, all I can say is...no wonder. A brother has told me, and yes, I trust him...that he saw the possibility of "another" Jesus being preached. He even accepted to himself he was not exempted from that possibility of "preaching another Jesus, another gospel". He went so far as to say that even seeming "heavenly beings" could endorse a such....that is...coming to preach "another Jesus". A Jesus, from where I sit now, would be something of an insufficiency.

So, I don't know what "Jesus" you had, see/saw or think you know about...even now. But if you think that He is summonable (who will ascend to bring him down, or descend to bring him up?) at the will of man (mine or any other)...then yes "that" Jesus would be, by very nature of concept...insufficient.

So yes...I accept you as being honest, now accept my honest appraisal (if you can)...the very "best" of what you have seen of the Jesus you have seen...is insufficient...to you. You are asking for the "unifying equation" of all things, and haven't seen it, nor been able to find it produced through any man you know, or have ever spoken to. I believe you.

But all that points to only one thing that I have already (and not only myself...but of many others to whom you have spoken, and have spoken to you) accepted...their own insufficiency to "make God appear" to men.

So yes, to say in whatever manner, in whatever words, in whatever motive (and chemicals would rather be at a loss for explaining their bonds) "your God is insufficient to me" is of no matter. We have already accepted our own insufficiency to "explain Him"...so all we really do hear is "I find you...insufficient" to show this God. Which of course...is perfect.


For we do not preach ourselves (as sufficient to anything)...but Christ.

And the fact remains, after all your exhaustive expounding, that this loving creator who only wants our devotion and attention(or else), has remained silent and absent, leaving us to fill in the blanks, assume, and suppose.

In the absence of a god, mankind created one.
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
Why do we talk to each other...at all?
It appears whatever Jesus you had, were "told" by others to believe in, and about whom you are now "honest with yourself", well, perhaps your complaint about him, about that (as widespread in tenor and substance as I hear from the "most of you") experience is its insufficiency. His insufficiency. "Its"...insufficiency.

Of course I can't make you...or anyone, even myself for that matter "make you to see" the Jesus I know...though it be thrown as challenge often. And as you know, to many others. "Produce this 'god' for us...for our judgement, our discerning".

This has everything, from the outset, wrong in its matter of being. Man is the product. if you really want the god who is producible from man...I don't believe you (or any other here, or even in the upstairs as you guys say) have to think long on that foolishness. Who really wants the god a man can "produce" at will? Can force to "show himself"?

Any and all of that is so wrongheaded as to be laughable. Oh...a man can say...can plead...can with the utmost earnestness in word...speak..."no really...really...I would believe if you could just summon him up, or by some means present to me a way he can be summoned...made to "me" sufficiently present in being (as you say he is to you) that I might...believe" This is what I hear, almost without exception...always. "Make known to us...this god you have". Or, at the very least (and equally contrariwise, at the very most) you say you have.

No he is not a performing monkey. Nor is he "what is had by men", he is the haver. He has the man, not vice versa.

Yet, in that, I hear, despite all the resistance (or what may want to appear so) a plea, a calling out...(Back to the original question...why do we even talk to each other, at all?) for a sufficiency.


"I was once a believer...but I found out it was all hooey" "I am now honest with myself" "I saw all there was to see about this Jesus thing, and then, I peeked behind the curtain".

To that, all I can say is...no wonder. A brother has told me, and yes, I trust him...that he saw the possibility of "another" Jesus being preached. He even accepted to himself he was not exempted from that possibility of "preaching another Jesus, another gospel". He went so far as to say that even seeming "heavenly beings" could endorse a such....that is...coming to preach "another Jesus". A Jesus, from where I sit now, would be something of an insufficiency.

So, I don't know what "Jesus" you had, see/saw or think you know about...even now. But if you think that He is summonable (who will ascend to bring him down, or descend to bring him up?) at the will of man (mine or any other)...then yes "that" Jesus would be, by very nature of concept...insufficient.

So yes...I accept you as being honest, now accept my honest appraisal (if you can)...the very "best" of what you have seen of the Jesus you have seen...is insufficient...to you. You are asking for the "unifying equation" of all things, and haven't seen it, nor been able to find it produced through any man you know, or have ever spoken to. I believe you.

But all that points to only one thing that I have already (and not only myself...but of many others to whom you have spoken, and have spoken to you) accepted...their own insufficiency to "make God appear" to men.

So yes, to say in whatever manner, in whatever words, in whatever motive (and chemicals would rather be at a loss for explaining their bonds) "your God is insufficient to me" is of no matter. We have already accepted our own insufficiency to "explain Him"...so all we really do hear is "I find you...insufficient" to show this God. Which of course...is perfect.


For we do not preach ourselves (as sufficient to anything)...but Christ.
"He" just is Not
I do not expect the non existent to show except when the likes of you and others say it not only exists but interacts with you, talks to you and that you know it so well that you take it upon yourselves to speak for it because YOU know what it wants.
All the believers of any and all gods that have ever and will ever believe in any so called gods sound just like you while saying different and conflicting details about the same gods.

As close as I have gotten to a god is the same as close as I have gotten to a comic book superhero. It is through the individuals that have convinced themselves they are someone else they would rather be... in a different realm that they would rather be in...and have to act out those situations as if they were real. They talk the part, dress the part, live the lifestyle, adopt the "speak", gather together, reminice about events that didn't really happen, tell others about it at every chance and try to convince others that what they have is unique and special and that the others should try it. But at the end of the day it is just a fantasy.
They are the product of themselves and not only expect others to join them but think that others are ignoring the "facts " that they have convinced themselves exist.

Sharpen your ears, wear a cape, talk FOR a god... go for it. But stand in front of your magical Clint Eastwood funhouse mirror when you do it. Then you can use terms like wrongheaded and laughable.
 

Israel

BANNED
"He" just is Not
I do not expect the non existent to show except when the likes of you and others say it not only exists but interacts with you, talks to you and that you know it so well that you take it upon yourselves to speak for it because YOU know what it wants.
All the believers of any and all gods that have ever and will ever believe in any so called gods sound just like you while saying different and conflicting details about the same gods.

As close as I have gotten to a god is the same as close as I have gotten to a comic book superhero. It is through the individuals that have convinced themselves they are someone else they would rather be in a different realm that they would rather be in and have to act out those situations as if they were real. They talk the part, dress the part, live the lifestyle, adopt the "speak", gather together, reminice about events that didn't really happen, tell others about it at every chance and try to convince others that what they have is unique and special and that the others should try it. But at the end of the day it is just a fantasy.
They are the product of themselves and not only expect others to join them but think that others are ignoring the "facts " that they have convinced themselves exist.

Sharpen your ears, wear a cape, talk FOR a god... go for it. But stand in front of your magical Clint Eastwood funhouse mirror when you do it. Then you can use terms like wrongheaded and laughable.

You do not see the fallacy? What difference the man who..."is now honest with himself"...and some "other" man accused of being given to "made up things?"

We are all "made up"...by the Producer. He the farmer, we the produce. One fit to one thing, another fit to another...and all just right for the revealing.

Feedback is the only thing man knows of the knowing of himself. And, over that neither your nor I...have any control. Unless, of course, your honesty to yourself is the perfection of truth.
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
You do not see the fallacy? What difference the man who..."is now honest with himself"...and some "other" man accused of being given to "made up things?"

We are all "made up"...by the Producer. He the farmer, we the produce. One fit to one thing, another fit to another...and all just right for the revealing.

Feedback is the only thing man knows of the knowing of himself. And, over that neither your nor I...have any control. Unless, of course, your honesty to yourself is the perfection of truth.
What I know is that we both "are"

The fallacy is pretending to know exactly how we got here.

You certainly need a producer for your show
 

Israel

BANNED
"He" just is Not

A god could PROVE a god.
It doesn't mean everybody would believe, but goodness, wouldn't it prove a god exists if a an event witnessed worldwide by everyone took place? ...

The one who related this is true:

‘Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them so they will not also end up in this place of torment.’ But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let your brothers listen to them.’…‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’ Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
The one who related this is true:

‘Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them so they will not also end up in this place of torment.’ But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let your brothers listen to them.’…‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’ Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Israel, the one who related that was saying the obvious. It goes for all people and all gods. The way it is stated in your bible is to make an excuse for the inability of a real god to captivate all humans.

My god can but he won't because if he did you won't believe it anyway.
Translation
My god doesnt exist so I have to make excuses for what I think should be but isnt.
 

Israel

BANNED
I don't see that in that, at all.
I see Jesus saying that a man that is not convicted of a righteousness greater than his own will not believe.
The gospel, the good news...is really only good news to traitors, to convicts, to those who have had their eyes open to being under a lash that they either cannot, or will not any longer deny is of their own deserving. And it is clearly not something of which one man can make another aware or accept.
After all...we are all...pretty decent folks, right?

Yes...it's an "out". It's the out...the "get out of jail" card for the most hardened of criminals. No, it is not fair in any sense man could perceive, indeed it is probably the most "unfair" thing ever revealed.

You said in another post very recently, "hearing the truth is hard...accepting it...even harder". Everyone, you, me...yes...everyone...wants points for "doing the hard work"...something to show for it...for "putting in the time on this" (whatever "this" may be).

What is more offensive than watching someone get "all the credit" for what appears to be none of their own doing? A thing just "given them" while any other one in particular labors long and hard to have the very thing they see just given another. Yes, it's infuriating...until that fury is faced.

Jesus made it very plain he didn't come for the whole and well. He came for the ill. Then of course, the well and whole, having no need of him, will not find him beckoning with healing. Why would they, how could they?

A man could say "But I don't want to be found a wretch" then obviously, that man doesn't really want to be found...at all.

Me, I got no choice in the matter.

In what seems the kindest way imaginable you tell me I am a snake oil salesman, the Ron Popeil of forums, the indefatigable gas bag of bloggingly tedious posts. But these are really far kinder descriptions than I merit. Ron Popeil is probably much kinder, bloggers probably know their place better than I, and snake oil salesmen may even succumb to a restitution of means when pressed.

Yes, in every way, at every turn, without exception I am the "that guy" that all the memes so warn against being... "don't be that guy".

I just can't feel bad about it anymore as once I did, laboring under a lash to be a someone and something other than what I am. Of course no one in their right mind would want to listen to me or think like I do for fear of becoming in appearance as I appear to them.

But I have a friend.

And been on this earth long enough, and in this earth long enough to know, things are never as they seem. But before I grab for my own gold ring touting a tenure in which I have had no choice, no, none at all, (I have not had to keep myself awake to remember to merely breathe)...all of it has been given me, friend and all...in a moment...in the twinkling of an eye. Undeserved.

No, I am not a gunslinger, not a man one could fear with lightning in his holster, and surely not as good a friend as this one is portrayed...plainly willing to take a bullet in order to stay close. I am the man with man boobs, who cowers easily, tires quickly, and always exceeds in imagination of myself at the expense of others. But to trade the truth of that could be to exchange the truth of why a silly movie is even able to speak to me, or a silly cat, or a silly cup of coffee, or a silly thing that has been happening every single day...relentlessly...the dawn. To be really awake to any, must include being awake to all.

Even the odd truth that as creature I am probably host to an equal number of bacteria as I am composed of "my own" living cells. Seems I am "home" to an almost innumerable host of things, my own cells included that, were they all having to wait upon my conscious instructions for their directions...well, I've long since ceded this house of consciousness is to some purpose for consciousness that consciousness can even be fooled by. Like believing it can even direct itself. "I will be conscious of this...but...Oh, no, not that!" I know I can't make anyone see the humor in that. But if they have...we laugh.
No, I am always needing to be told through a feedback over which I have no control of "what's going on". I am well aware of the barter of men in souls to secure what they hope to have, what they believe they need. Selling off a thing not really their own to sell in hope of purchase of deemed necessities. Pleasant feedback. Believing they start with full account, but discovering they have been laboring all of debt...from the outset. Yes, Jesus told me that.

If you haven't been faithful with someone else's property, who will give you your own? Lk 16:12

But yes, I have a friend. He keeps me...to the keeping of him...in my soul. After all, it's his, he purchased it, that debt riddled decrepit thing I only found use for in the selling.


 
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bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
I don't see that in that, at all.
I see Jesus saying that a man that is not convicted of a righteousness greater than his own will not believe.
The gospel, the good news...is really only good news to traitors, to convicts, to those who have had their eyes open to being under a lash that they either cannot, or will not any longer deny is of their own deserving. And it is clearly not something of which one man can make another aware or accept.
After all...we are all...pretty decent folks, right?

Yes...it's an "out". It's the out...the "get out of jail" card for the most hardened of criminals. No, it is not fair in any sense man could perceive, indeed it is probably the most "unfair" thing ever revealed.

You said in another post very recently, "hearing the truth is hard...accepting it...even harder". Everyone, you, me...yes...everyone...wants points for "doing the hard work"...something to show for it...for "putting in the time on this" (whatever "this" may be).

What is more offensive than watching someone get "all the credit" for what appears to be none of their own doing? A thing just "given them" while any other one in particular labors long and hard to have the very thing they see just given another. Yes, it's infuriating...until that fury is faced.

Jesus made it very plain he didn't come for the whole and well. He came for the ill. Then of course, the well and whole, having no need of him, will not find him beckoning with healing. Why would they, how could they?

A man could say "But I don't want to be found a wretch" then obviously, that man doesn't really want to be found...at all.

Me, I got no choice in the matter.

In what seems the kindest way imaginable you tell me I am a snake oil salesman, the Ron Popeil of forums, the indefatigable gas bag of bloggingly tedious posts. But these are really far kinder descriptions than I merit. Ron Popeil is probably much kinder, bloggers probably know their place better than I, and snake oil salesmen may even succumb to a restitution of means when pressed.

Yes, in every way, at every turn, without exception I am the "that guy" that all the memes so warn against being... "don't be that guy".

I just can't feel bad about it anymore as once I did, laboring under a lash to be a someone and something other than what I am. Of course no one in their right mind would want to listen to me or think like I do for fear of becoming in appearance as I appear to them.

But I have a friend.

And been on this earth long enough, and in this earth long enough to know, things are never as they seem. But before I grab for my own gold ring touting a tenure in which I have had no choice, no, none at all, (I have not had to keep myself awake to remember to merely breathe)...all of it has been given me, friend and all...in a moment...in the twinkling of an eye. Undeserved.

No, I am not a gunslinger, not a man one could fear with lightning in his holster, and surely not as good a friend as this one is portrayed...plainly willing to take a bullet in order to stay close. I am the man with man boobs, who cowers easily, tires quickly, and always exceeds in imagination of myself at the expense of others. But to trade the truth of that could be to exchange the truth of why a silly movie is even able to speak to me, or a silly cat, or a silly cup of coffee, or a silly thing that has been happening every single day...relentlessly...the dawn. To be really awake to any, must include being awake to all.

Even the odd truth that as creature I am probably host to an equal number of bacteria as I am composed of "my own" living cells. Seems I am "home" to an almost innumerable host of things, my own cells included that, were they all having to wait upon my conscious instructions for their directions...well, I've long since ceded this house of consciousness is to some purpose for consciousness that consciousness can even be fooled by. Like believing it can even direct itself. "I will be conscious of this...but...Oh, no, not that!" I know I can't make anyone see the humor in that. But if they have...we laugh.
No, I am always needing to be told through a feedback over which I have no control of "what's going on". I am well aware of the barter of men in souls to secure what they hope to have, what they believe they need. Selling off a thing not really their own to sell in hope of purchase of deemed necessities. Pleasant feedback. Believing they start with full account, but discovering they have been laboring all of debt...from the outset. Yes, Jesus told me that.

If you haven't been faithful with someone else's property, who will give you your own? Lk 16:12

But yes, I have a friend. He keeps me...to the keeping of him...in my soul. After all, it's his, he purchased it, that debt riddled decrepit thing I only found use for in the selling.


Nobody that actually heard Jesus say anything wrote any part of those gospels. They had no idea what Jesus said or didn't say. Neither do you.
 

StriperAddict

Senior Member
A small take on 'proof'

Nobody that actually heard Jesus say anything wrote any part of those gospels. They had no idea what Jesus said or didn't say. Neither do you.

I came to a breakthrough of sorts in a tangible way some years back when I was having issue with the scriptures as "a whole". Guess you could call it a doubting Thomas moment for me -- which ended well. The appeal of this may be relevant.

The bible always had a cohesiveness for me and that became more apparent with time. But after a decade in the faith (late 80's) there were some points that didn't seem as if they "spoke" or were understood at "any" level, not even a spiritual one, to me. In essence, perhaps like you, I saw an over kill of rules and regs that didn't connect the dots with the Lord's words: "Come to me --- I will give you rest". Yes, I accepted the invitation some years back, and chose to believe and take our Lord at His word.
But for a time I had a crisis of faith, ....
"what if this 'book of books' hadn't really 'spoken' the Life I had witnessed once?" The strange thing was that for whatever gaze I put toward that sacrificial work of Love from a roman cross, I turned the gaze back on myself and began to 'measure' my 'performance' toward this One who delighted in me not for a perfect performance but for His Life freely given within hearts, including mine.

So the futility of weighing my duties against His work became a looking away from that unconditional gift and the grace by which a man is sin rescued, and not out of his own doing.
There's much more to say about this, but this is not my main thought. I'll include it only to describe my personal struggle, and my frustration from how I was 'seeing' the Life message in the bible.

Shoot back about 150 years to another man, a brilliant linguist and mathematician... "He had a voracious appetite for knowledge, especially in literature and linguistics. At the age of 22 he emigrated to the United States and entered Harvard University, where he spent four years, picking up Greek and Hebrew, and graduating in 1882 with a Master of Literary Criticism." - Wiki added.

This man was a staunch doubter of the message of the bible, but while investigating the original old and new testament manuscripts he found something so fascinating that he devoted the rest of his life to it.

He proved the truth of that verse ...
2 Pete 1:21 - No prophecy ever originated from humans. Instead, it was given by the Holy Spirit as humans spoke under God’s direction.

In short, an incalculable amount of patterns and equations had come out of his studies, so much so that to this day no one has been able to refute his findings, nor has the largest computing systems and servers ever matched the intricate and profound "weave" of the pages of scripture, with a blueprint unmatched by any other. These intricacies could not have been from the minds of Moses, the prophets or those ragamuffin disciples including the Apostle Paul himself, with out a Divine working through such men.

Being convinced the bible had a source Higher than man's imagination, he also began to look at each of the 66 books of 'cannon' and witness to the mark of Providence in it.

Perhaps he considered, "What if He should "be" -- of all time and eternity, Him who has come to bear all our burdens?"

Yes, the grappling of this thing called 'trust' and 'faith', toward Him who is unseen, yet calls, wills (that none miss it), that loves, gives ... and gives rest. This man began that trek also, and no turning back but a redemptive conclusion.

Now maybe this mathematical work won't resonate with some. I get that, but my own time on this became a refreshment for me in the bible studies from that point forward. I would hope a look at this, as thoroughly as possible might answer doubts and begin to give clarity and knowledge of its Benevolent Author.

Indeed, it's been my own experience that this man's linguistic and math pattern findings have 'spoken' to doubt, especially my own. Especially in times of 'dryness' if you will, to the life of faith.
Yes, since this 'crisis', I have found that One Man was very well and fully given to my spirit and soul and began to show Himself in that "book' as one to whom I may have union. Yes, by this at the right time was to have a refreshing 'look' at Him who dwells in light.

==============

Some links here might add better insight than I have tried to explain ...

This link is to an entire book by Ivan Panin:
The structure of the Bible : a proof of the verbal inspiration of Scripture

Wiki

Other Books at Amazon

All this to say - consider uncovering the message of the bible itself. As I went back and did just that, many of my objections were answered or just became 'smaller', but the unconditional message of union, acceptance & Mercy & Grace became overwhelming.

My 2 pesos...
There's proof enough of the scriptures' eternal, Providential Origin from this man's work.
Yes, even he, a hardened atheist, became a believer with time.
Peace
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
I came to a breakthrough of sorts in a tangible way some years back when I was having issue with the scriptures as "a whole". Guess you could call it a doubting Thomas moment for me -- which ended well. The appeal of this may be relevant.

The bible always had a cohesiveness for me and that became more apparent with time. But after a decade in the faith (late 80's) there were some points that didn't seem as if they "spoke" or were understood at "any" level, not even a spiritual one, to me. In essence, perhaps like you, I saw an over kill of rules and regs that didn't connect the dots with the Lord's words: "Come to me --- I will give you rest". Yes, I accepted the invitation some years back, and chose to believe and take our Lord at His word.
But for a time I had a crisis of faith, ....
"what if this 'book of books' hadn't really 'spoken' the Life I had witnessed once?" The strange thing was that for whatever gaze I put toward that sacrificial work of Love from a roman cross, I turned the gaze back on myself and began to 'measure' my 'performance' toward this One who delighted in me not for a perfect performance but for His Life freely given within hearts, including mine.

So the futility of weighing my duties against His work became a looking away from that unconditional gift and the grace by which a man is sin rescued, and not out of his own doing.
There's much more to say about this, but this is not my main thought. I'll include it only to describe my personal struggle, and my frustration from how I was 'seeing' the Life message in the bible.

Shoot back about 150 years to another man, a brilliant linguist and mathematician... "He had a voracious appetite for knowledge, especially in literature and linguistics. At the age of 22 he emigrated to the United States and entered Harvard University, where he spent four years, picking up Greek and Hebrew, and graduating in 1882 with a Master of Literary Criticism." - Wiki added.

This man was a staunch doubter of the message of the bible, but while investigating the original old and new testament manuscripts he found something so fascinating that he devoted the rest of his life to it.

He proved the truth of that verse ...
2 Pete 1:21 - No prophecy ever originated from humans. Instead, it was given by the Holy Spirit as humans spoke under God’s direction.

In short, an incalculable amount of patterns and equations had come out of his studies, so much so that to this day no one has been able to refute his findings, nor has the largest computing systems and servers ever matched the intricate and profound "weave" of the pages of scripture, with a blueprint unmatched by any other. These intricacies could not have been from the minds of Moses, the prophets or those ragamuffin disciples including the Apostle Paul himself, with out a Divine working through such men.

Being convinced the bible had a source Higher than man's imagination, he also began to look at each of the 66 books of 'cannon' and witness to the mark of Providence in it.

Perhaps he considered, "What if He should "be" -- of all time and eternity, Him who has come to bear all our burdens?"

Yes, the grappling of this thing called 'trust' and 'faith', toward Him who is unseen, yet calls, wills (that none miss it), that loves, gives ... and gives rest. This man began that trek also, and no turning back but a redemptive conclusion.

Now maybe this mathematical work won't resonate with some. I get that, but my own time on this became a refreshment for me in the bible studies from that point forward. I would hope a look at this, as thoroughly as possible might answer doubts and begin to give clarity and knowledge of its Benevolent Author.

Indeed, it's been my own experience that this man's linguistic and math pattern findings have 'spoken' to doubt, especially my own. Especially in times of 'dryness' if you will, to the life of faith.
Yes, since this 'crisis', I have found that One Man was very well and fully given to my spirit and soul and began to show Himself in that "book' as one to whom I may have union. Yes, by this at the right time was to have a refreshing 'look' at Him who dwells in light.

==============

Some links here might add better insight than I have tried to explain ...

This link is to an entire book by Ivan Panin:
The structure of the Bible : a proof of the verbal inspiration of Scripture

Wiki

Other Books at Amazon

All this to say - consider uncovering the message of the bible itself. As I went back and did just that, many of my objections were answered or just became 'smaller', but the unconditional message of union, acceptance & Mercy & Grace became overwhelming.

My 2 pesos...
There's proof enough of the scriptures' eternal, Providential Origin from this man's work.
Yes, even he, a hardened atheist, became a believer with time.
Peace
Who is this guy so I can research him?
 

ambush80

Senior Member
God gives us free will not to choose to be with Him in heaven when you die.

It's not going to be a picnic to be apart from the presence of God, which is he11. God doesn't want you there so He made a way that you wouldn't have to spend eternity apart from Him.

All these years and you're still making posts like this, it makes one think you're not listening.

Jump to 20:43.



At 21:40:

"When someone says something too evil to believe, one response is not to doubt their sincerity, but to expand one's capacity to imagine what otherwise decent people can desire."

I understand you, String. Given that you judge everything from the starting point that everything God does is just and right and good and loving, I can see why the concept of He11 doesn't bother you. Luckily, you do what most Western people do with the concept of He11, you mentally compartmentalize it and shelve it in a dark corner where you don't have to deal with it daily. If you responded to it like the truly horrific idea that it is, and in conjunction with the 'love of your neighbor' that you aspire to, you would be tearing your clothes in the streets and yelling at the top of your lungs for God to show sinners like me some mercy. You would stand on a street corner with a sign and a bullhorn, pleading out of love for everyone to repent. If you told me you were gonna kill yourself I would PM you. I would call you on the phone. I would go to your house. I'm going to burn in He11 for eternity. Don't you love me enough to at least do that?

It's a rhetorical question. Don't call me or come to my house unless you just wanna hang out. You don't believe in He11 anymore than I do.
 

ambush80

Senior Member


More awesome quotes. at 1:17:18.

Graem Wood: "God has blinded us to lots of things before, why not 'this' too? Why should we expect that our scientific instruments will be able to do what God may very well not want us to be able to do?"

Sam Harris: "This is how faith functions as the ultimate 'get out of epistemological jail free' card."
 

welderguy

Senior Member
Jump to 20:43.



At 21:40:

"When someone says something too evil to believe, one response is not to doubt their sincerity, but to expand one's capacity to imagine what otherwise decent people can desire."

I understand you, String. Given that you judge everything from the starting point that everything God does is just and right and good and loving, I can see why the concept of He11 doesn't bother you. Luckily, you do what most Western people do with the concept of He11, you mentally compartmentalize it and shelve it in a dark corner where you don't have to deal with it daily. If you responded to it like the truly horrific idea that it is, and in conjunction with the 'love of your neighbor' that you aspire to, you would be tearing your clothes in the streets and yelling at the top of your lungs for God to show sinners like me some mercy. You would stand on a street corner with a sign and a bullhorn, pleading out of love for everyone to repent. If you told me you were gonna kill yourself I would PM you. I would call you on the phone. I would go to your house. I'm going to burn in He11 for eternity. Don't you love me enough to at least do that?

It's a rhetorical question. Don't call me or come to my house unless you just wanna hang out. You don't believe in He11 anymore than I do.

We are not your saviour. We are only reflectors of the light of our saviour.
Don't mistake that.

I believe in a real he11.
 

ambush80

Senior Member
We are not your saviour. We are only reflectors of the light of our saviour.
Don't mistake that.

I believe in a real he11.

Wrong answer.

You should have said "God didn't give me that job. He moves me to testify only to the degree that He knows I can stand to offer. He would never give me a cross I couldn't bear".
 

Israel

BANNED
So they said to Jesus, “We do not know.” “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things,” He replied. “But what do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today’ in the vineyard. ‘I will not,’ he replied. But later he changed his mind and went.

Then the man went to the second son and told him the same thing. ‘I will, sir,’ he said. But he did not go. Which of the two did the will of his father?” “The first,” they answered. Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you."

To me it appears the first son was given time to repent, to rethink...to go. The second son was given time to discover his proclaimed obedience was a vanity.

To be honest, I have no idea into which son I am presently fit. The most recalcitrant I see may indeed be the one made to obedience...while I sit and judge him for saying "no". And I could indeed be the one proclaiming obedience...with no real intention of going....till I find out. Completely mistaken about what "sort of man" I am...and therefore completely mistaken about everything else. (here could be a necessary pause...to consider that)

yes, I am "in the experiment" no less than any other.

God knows.


Addendum...I am trusting at least someone, if only one other one...will see the humor in this, having found it posted to my feed immediately upon leaving this forum. Of course to some it may seem completely irrelevant...to another just a thing at best of "serendipity"...but you ask...why would a man believe he is hearing from the God of all gods? I just believe I can no longer avoid it.
 

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