Islam, creation, and science

Artfuldodger · Dec 2, 2015

DirtyBird said:
That's a good question and not sure how to answer that right now.

I do know if the Palestinians did lay down their arms, they would be systematically removed from their homes with new settlements. If Israel laid down its arms, the extremist groups would take advantage of it.

It's unfortunately a fight that will continue for God knows how long. I personally don't see an end to it in my lifetime.

Not that I'm an expert on Middle East affairs but I'm going to have to side with Israel in this. They show pretty good restraint. You can only throw so many rocks at a guy with a gun before he's had enough and shoots back.
This is related back to land and taking other people's land. I do wish the Palestinians had all they has and the Jews had all they had. There is a Christian concept called Zionism in which in order for the Christian Bible to be fulfilled, we must help Israel regain all of the land it originally had. Strange concept believing God needs help in making his prophesy come true.
Many Christians do see the prophesy of God restoring Israel but not to the point of Zionism or taking land.
Others see Israel in our Bible as the Church and not a nation at all. I'll admit it's all quite confusing.
We've has a few discussion on the Political forum in regards to Israel and Palestine.
I feel I'm pretty good to be open minded enough to seeing all views.
Thanks for joining in as I think you might be the first Muslim to post in regards to religion.

Would you say that most Muslims in the US are Capitalists or Socialists? Hey we might have more in common than we know. Most Americans like Capitalism no matter what nationality.

Artfuldodger · Dec 2, 2015

Fear of Imperialism. Many Americans fear that Muslims might be Imperialists and are trying to take over the US for Allah. Could you touch on this or cast those fears aside?
We don't want a Muslim nation or group to gather us all up and put us on a reservation or kill us.

Artfuldodger · Dec 2, 2015

DirtyBird said:
I agree 100%. They could make the place barren. On the other hand there have been many questionable strikes on supposed "militant" strongholds.

What targets do you see them hitting? Settlements?

Here is a link we had on the radicals in Christianity wanting to help God bring forth his prophesy by expanding Israels borders. We all see it differently among ourselves. It was mentioned that radical Christians aren't beheading people.
It was a good discussion on the facets of Zionism.

I'm not sure if the present country of Israel is the same Israel that was in the Bible. I'm not even sure who the correct people who God calls Jews are. Maybe it's not the group that makes up present Israel. It could be that Israel is now the Church. The lost Jews could now be Gentiles due to breeding with Gentiles while they were lost. Maybe Gentiles are now Jews. In God's eyes there are no Jews or Gentiles concerning salvation. I'm not sure if one day God will save all of the Jews as Paul says he will in Romans 11. If he will and does, I'm pretty sure he doesn't need my help rounding them up.

Link to discussion;
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=834692&highlight=zionism

DirtyBird · Dec 3, 2015

Artfuldodger said:
Concerning the action of past Christians. Some have used Christianity as an excuse for there country to expand by taking the land of others. I see many world problems that are caused from expansion of other countries, Christian or other. Spreading the Gospel is different than Imperialism.
In this regard I think many Christian nations have learned from their past. They don't burn witches. Most Christians are more acceptable of other religions than they were in the past. Most Christians have moved beyond the Legalism of years past into a more grace type of salvation. This is a plus as they learn not to judge people and move away from government laws based on Christianity. Christians once considered women as not equal with men. Using the Bible they kept women from being teachers of men. This religious Law moved into their society.
Forgiveness is also a big part of Christianity. I too see many differences in Christianity taught by our Apostle Paul than the Christianity that guided or guides our government.
It's almost like two different types of Christians. The Spiritual Christians and the Political Christians. Perhaps Islam is divided like this.

Regarding representation, if it is only a small group that is radical, the majority or 99% of the other such as yourself need to speak out against the radicals. We don't feel that as a group the majority has done this.
I did see a group of Muslims protesting the violence of other Muslims in Atlanta a few years back.

I agree with you 100% in regards to speaking out. We really do need to do more of this. Many of my Muslim friends will discuss issues with one another but I am always on them telling them to let non-Muslims know what the majority of us really are.

We know what we are but people on the outside looking in do not. Those are the people we need to sit down with and talk to. Let them know who we really are!

DirtyBird · Dec 3, 2015

Artfuldodger said:
Fear of Imperialism. Many Americans fear that Muslims might be Imperialists and are trying to take over the US for Allah. Could you touch on this or cast those fears aside?
We don't want a Muslim nation or group to gather us all up and put us on a reservation or kill us.

This fear should be squashed and thrown aside. We are no more different than anyone else in America. All the Muslims I have met over my life are no more different than you and me. Work, hang out, play sports, etc.. Muslim's don't want to kill. We have the upmost respect for living creatures. A verse in the Quran says "to kill one human is as if you have killed the entire race."

660griz · Dec 4, 2015

DirtyBird said:
A verse in the Quran says "to kill one human is as if you have killed the entire race."

Awesome. What about these?
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

How do you differentiate the violent passages from the peaceful ones? For instance, Christianity says that the Old Testament is no longer followed. Jesus gave a new way.
How do Muslims rationalize the violent passages?
"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Really curious.

One more thing. According to the Quran, is it o.k. to lie to infidels in order to gain their trust?

DirtyBird · Dec 4, 2015

660griz said:
Awesome. What about these?
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

How do you differentiate the violent passages from the peaceful ones? For instance, Christianity says that the Old Testament is no longer followed. Jesus gave a new way.
How do Muslims rationalize the violent passages?
"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Really curious.

One more thing. According to the Quran, is it o.k. to lie to infidels in order to gain their trust?

I would have to read the verses around those to gain full context. I have seen these verses singled out before but the context of it would probably be fully understandable if someone read more than that verse.

Also I have never heard that to gain trust it would be OK to lie. Interesting.

Artfuldodger · Dec 4, 2015

Islam and Judaism are both works based religions. They both live by religious law. Christianity is based on salvation that came in the form of God's grace.
This means that we don't have to abide by religious rules and protocol to gain salvation from our God.
We don't have to prove we are worthy of Heaven. Now at one time before Christ we were as they. We were cursed by the law as they.

Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole."

Until Allah grants them immunity from this curse they have no choice but to gain his favor by actions instead of a reprieve for the curse of his Law.

Islam, creation, and science

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