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  #51  
Old 10-11-2017, 09:53 AM
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seems to think he is the only one who has spent time running cams and managing property as well. Funny stuff.
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  #52  
Old 10-11-2017, 10:00 AM
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Jim I agree with your statements and I typically don't guess unless I know.
I will admit I may be a little thrown off by this six point because of some pics I'm using in 2014 that I really not 100 percent on. If I throw those out I still believe that buck is no less than 4 in 2016. Now that not really old but still mature. But I'm waiting on a better set of pics from this season will maybe help.
But I save a lot of pics of tiny details that help me identify these deer. I look for little nicks in the ears throat patches. I have some one and two year old bucks that I would never know were the same by just looking at the racks. Another way that helps is at the end of the season when they group back up they tend to be in the same groups in summer usually with a couple more added. But usually the bucks I say I know about I can show proof. Now I can only say I have that big six in 2015 and 2016 100 percent right now. Honestly it's unlikely that he is younger than 4 in 2015 based on body sizes of most our deer.
I believe we do suffer from poor soil and nutrients in our area. Genetics are 50/50. I have seen some great genetics and some very disappointing. We do what we can to help with this but as always money is a limiting factor. If it wasn't I probably wouldn't be hunting here.
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  #53  
Old 10-11-2017, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by humdandy View Post
Got a friend of mine that kills every spike he sees......they are all cull deer.......spike will never be anything but a spike he says.......

I wonder how we ever grow deer with big antlers? Are they just born with 150 racks?

Maybe we should kill all bucks with less than 8 points! They are inferior deer and need to be killed....
I don't believe in "cull" deer, and I don't buy the spike theory, although it is certainly true with some. I have personally killed a couple of dominant, 4-5 year old cowhorn spikes with massive-based spikes well more than a foot long, both in the same area. My buddy killed a couple more of them. Our trophy hunter friend didn't want to waste a tag on them. They tasted fine.

Most spikes are just 1 1/2 year old bucks that will eventually grow racks. But, if I was a trophy hunter, which I'm not-I would figure that a 1 1/2 year old buck with an 6 or 8-point basket rack is likely gonna grow into a much bigger-antlered buck eventually than the 1 1/2 year old who is wearing little goathorn spikes. And the lack of brow tines often seems to hold true as a buck ages. Most 2 1/2 year old six-pointers seem to tend to become 4 or 5 year old six points.
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  #54  
Old 10-11-2017, 10:27 AM
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All I hear is the originator was looking for everybody to agree with him, and now anyone who uses statistics is told they're self righteous experts! If we just knew you were the expert nobody would've needed reply. I think what they're all saying is genetics go considerably further a doe has a 10 pt daddy. Look at human population, same parents but we do not look similar to our brothers and sisters. Further, if you cull these bucks another set of bucks will undoubtedly move in. The research shows that without a fence there is no control of a breeding population. Feed and nutrient rich soil is the best help you have to grow bigger horns.
The original post was somewhat of a trick. Sorry.
When someone offers facts or opinions I believe I have either agreed or offered a reason why I disagree. The original post wasn't really a question though was it?

The main reason for the post is because I don't agree 100 percent with studies about culling deer with "inferior" genetics is a waste of time.

I do agree that it is futile to think that I could change it drastically, but it baffles me when someone says it won't make any difference.

The laws of nature tell the male species to spread its genes. That's what they are programmed to do. They can't do that if they are deceased. Do I need to site studies if this behavior? Also managing a herd to keep it healthy is what hunting is all about. So technically every deer we kill is a cull. So if by removing any deer from a herd can effect it overall then surely it can also effect rack genetics?

Now taking an "inferior" racked buck out may only help for a season or two while a "better" racked buck takes his place for a while. Then you may be back at square one a few years later. But it helped for a few years.

I offered counter arguments like the antler restriction counties that seem to have seen more large mature six points because they can't be taken. A few chimed in.

I understand there are studies, but these studies have a lot of factors and really don't cover the details of how and what they culled. In fact they are in larger scale properties.

Hopefully this clears up my intent. Perhaps we can just agree to disagree. I feel like I have some good valid arguments and at the same time others tend to just ignore them.

And this is just a good debate on a subject. And I will
End by saying I am certainly the one going out on a limb countering "the studies" and if anyone will be completely wrong it will be me!!!!
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  #55  
Old 10-11-2017, 10:28 AM
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If you think a buck has reached his potential or close enough to it at say age 4.5 or older by all means kill him. He's a trophy regardless of what's on his head at that age.
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  #56  
Old 10-11-2017, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by NCHillbilly View Post
I don't believe in "cull" deer, and I don't buy the spike theory, although it is certainly true with some. I have personally killed a couple of dominant, 4-5 year old cowhorn spikes with massive-based spikes well more than a foot long, both in the same area. My buddy killed a couple more of them. Our trophy hunter friend didn't want to waste a tag on them. They tasted fine.

Most spikes are just 1 1/2 year old bucks that will eventually grow racks. But, if I was a trophy hunter, which I'm not-I would figure that a 1 1/2 year old buck with an 6 or 8-point basket rack is likely gonna grow into a much bigger-antlered buck eventually than the 1 1/2 year old who is wearing little goathorn spikes. And the lack of brow tines often seems to hold true as a buck ages. Most 2 1/2 year old six-pointers seem to tend to become 4 or 5 year old six points.
I agree with this as well. I see loads of spikes a year and have never seen one older than 2 on any of our properties. They are usually just a early or late born buck.
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  #57  
Old 10-11-2017, 10:33 AM
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What about the offspring from the does they bred last year?
What about the offspring of the does their dad bred last year. If they are 3 1/2 you will not see their true potential until 5 1/2 - 6 1/2
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  #58  
Old 10-11-2017, 11:08 AM
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What about the offspring from the does they bred last year?
What about the offspring of the does their dad bred last year. If they are 3 1/2 you will not see their true potential until 5 1/2 - 6 1/2
Sure that's a problem. But the yearlings aren't breeding much and you have a new mature buck running younger bucks off. Many factors depending on the property and buck to doe ratio. And I can't say it's true at all properties but I have come to the realization at our property these deer aren't changing much from what they are at 3.5. I've been patiently letting these poor looking three year olds walk with my fingers crossed. And now this has been the result is a bunch of mature six and seven points. (4+) yrs old. In the past I've been telling people to let them walk and now realizing they didn't get any better in some cases worse. So this is actually a case of trying to get bigger racks has back fired. Which may be a flaw in some of the studies. Where had this been public land or somewhere that most 2 and certainly 3 ye old deer get shot. The results might look different and even better.
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Old 10-11-2017, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by 01Foreman400 View Post
If you think a buck has reached his potential or close enough to it at say age 4.5 or older by all means kill him. He's a trophy regardless of what's on his head at that age.
This...a mature buck is a mature buck. If you are happy with taking him as a mature buck, take him. He is no less craftier than a 140" 10 pt. There's no gray matter in the horns anyway. Bucks just gain wariness that comes with age. If he doesn't meet your standards pass on him, unless you have too many and need to cull overall numbers to increase nutrition.

As for genetics, his genes are already out of the bag..so to speak. Already in the herd in the does and bucks conceived by his parents and their parents as well as any does he has already bred. Those genes are all around already. In some cases they may be recessive and never seen, other times not.
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  #60  
Old 10-11-2017, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by BassHunter25 View Post
Sure that's a problem. But the yearlings aren't breeding much and you have a new mature buck running younger bucks off. Many factors depending on the property and buck to doe ratio. And I can't say it's true at all properties but I have come to the realization at our property these deer aren't changing much from what they are at 3.5. I've been patiently letting these poor looking three year olds walk with my fingers crossed. And now this has been the result is a bunch of mature six and seven points. (4+) yrs old. In the past I've been telling people to let them walk and now realizing they didn't get any better in some cases worse. So this is actually a case of trying to get bigger racks has back fired. Which may be a flaw in some of the studies. Where had this been public land or somewhere that most 2 and certainly 3 ye old deer get shot. The results might look different and even better.
i shot a 7 point couple years ago, he was aged 5 1/2 had good mass, poor tine length but when he came behind a doe there was no doubt he was older than his racked looked with his big body. Sort of makes one wonder. I screwed up about 4 year ago on same property and shot a 2 1/2 year old 8 point that was bigger than him rack wise
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  #61  
Old 10-11-2017, 12:24 PM
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Default a trophy.....

is in the eyes of the hunter.

I have shot plenty of deer that had some ground shrinkage when I got to them. But, at that time when I said to myself "that's a good one"...he made the hit list.

Too many people get way to wound up in deer management, when what they need to do is do some research and talk to folks in forums that do these things for a living.

I have a friend in Leesburg Georgia and they are killing 170" deer.....but they have lots and lots of deer breeding does they cannot control it.

You need a lot of land, it needs to be high fenced, and then it will take several years to get the "cull" bucks eliminated....and even then something will show up all along that will make you say.."where did that buck come from?"

But, have fun just don't complain when QDM and Buck management is NOT as simple or near as easy as you thought it would be.

Radio collared bucks have been recorded traveling 7 miles to and from in a single night. Many bucks on trail cam on one property end up on a cell phone in the back of somebody elses truck 3 or 4 miles down the road.

just the facts

s&r
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  #62  
Old 10-11-2017, 12:49 PM
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A trophy is in the eyes of the hunter.
s&r
Yeah, some marry cause she sure is purty, some marry cause she sho does love to clean, and loves to cook and she a good cook too. Some marry like myself and get all them qualities which makes mine a trophy wife. Trophies are in the eye of the beholder.
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  #63  
Old 10-11-2017, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by spurrs and racks View Post
is in the eyes of the hunter.

I have shot plenty of deer that had some ground shrinkage when I got to them. But, at that time when I said to myself "that's a good one"...he made the hit list.

Too many people get way to wound up in deer management, when what they need to do is do some research and talk to folks in forums that do these things for a living.

I have a friend in Leesburg Georgia and they are killing 170" deer.....but they have lots and lots of deer breeding does they cannot control it.

You need a lot of land, it needs to be high fenced, and then it will take several years to get the "cull" bucks eliminated....and even then something will show up all along that will make you say.."where did that buck come from?"

But, have fun just don't complain when QDM and Buck management is NOT as simple or near as easy as you thought it would be.

Radio collared bucks have been recorded traveling 7 miles to and from in a single night. Many bucks on trail cam on one property end up on a cell phone in the back of somebody elses truck 3 or 4 miles down the road.

just the facts

s&r
I agree with all this s&r. I am enjoying what I'm doing and a lot of people are mistaking this thread or me as a big time trophy hunter or maybe a wanna be and that's not the case. In fact the purpose of the thread is to show not all mature old bucks will get huge high scoring racks.

Our club rules are that we only shoot bucks we would want to mount or that are at least 3 yrs old. So the want to mount is easy the aging is another story. So while many of these bucks in the op aren't what you would call mount worthy or even look older than 3.5 they are and I've got plenty of hunters that can't wait to take the safety off on a "cull" buck!
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  #64  
Old 10-11-2017, 01:14 PM
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Default everybody likes to kill a big buck

You have to let them live to kill one.

I agree there are deer at some point and time you can say ..." this buck will never make what we are trying to raise". And that's all cool.

What I am saying is for 99% of the hunters in this state, you need several like minded clubs or a very big track of land to even scratch the surface on this issue.

My friend in Monroe County has 3000 acres of land and charges $2300 a year to hunt it. 130" minimum and if you miss it it cost you a lot of money or you are out...which ever you prefer.

Now, this bunch is serious about it. But, they can also tell you that a 6 yr old 6pt is off limits because it is against the rules. You just have to pick how you are going to play it. There ain't no grey area or middle ground because everybody's opinion is different. Every year they have to chastise some poor member until he understands how to look closely before you pull the trigger.

Are there a few special bucks they get on cam every year and place them on a hit list. Sure, but they also generally let one of the members children or one of their spouses shoot these deer so there is no confusion.

Good luck

And for all them folks who say you can raise and control you deer herd on 100 ac of land. You can tell them I said...you cannot.

s&r
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  #65  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:04 PM
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I’d be spending more time improving your land and adding nutrition and cover for the deer than trying to pull the trigger on every 2-3 year old that mighta skipped a few meals and didn’t produce horns up to your standards. Only 1 of those 6 points is legal a year per person so it’d take a while...

Through research and case studies it would tell you your efforts would be futile but the only proven way to grow bigger bucks is by letting young ones live and providing them with more nutritious food choices and safety.
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:23 PM
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Default this

"the only proven way to grow bigger bucks is by letting young ones live and providing them with more nutritious food choices and safety."


spot on!

I'd rather be lucky than good, But luck is where preparation meets opportunity.

s&r
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  #67  
Old 10-11-2017, 03:01 PM
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They definitely can't get bigger if they are dead
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  #68  
Old 10-11-2017, 03:05 PM
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Iíd be spending more time improving your land and adding nutrition and cover for the deer than trying to pull the trigger on every 2-3 year old that mighta skipped a few meals and didnít produce horns up to your standards. Only 1 of those 6 points is legal a year per person so itíd take a while...

Through research and case studies it would tell you your efforts would be futile but the only proven way to grow bigger bucks is by letting young ones live and providing them with more nutritious food choices and safety.
We do all we can with the time and money we have as far as nutrition and habitat improvements. We plant what food plots we can. We burn everything other year we leave certain sections of the property as sanctuary (typically bedding areas). In the off season we fill feeders 50/50 corn and protein pellets.

All my good points are spread among the pages of the thread but basically pulling the trigger on mature scrappy bucks is simple and fun way that I think will also improve the property. Though some keep telling me it is a complete waste of time.

This is the seventh season managing this property I am still learning in fact the last property I managed was for six years and everything has worked almost the same way so I'm in somewhat uncharted territory personally.

On both properties we took very few bucks in the first three seasons. We managed does early and late season and did all we could to habitat and food source. The fourth through sixth seasons we were taking multiple mature bucks every season.

The first property in Bulloch county was only 500 acres and the deer and antlers were much better than where I am now on 1200 acres. In Bulloch we killed a buck in the 130's every season for us last three years.

Now we have nearly the same results though the bucks are only scoring sub 120's though they are 4 to 8 ur old deer. He biggest so far was an 8 yr old 12 point that only scored 131 gross. The tax said his jawbone was no less than 7.5 but I had him on cam for 5 years and he wasn't a baby when he was first on camera.
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  #69  
Old 10-12-2017, 01:42 PM
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All deer are cull.
But not all culls are deer...
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Old 10-12-2017, 03:16 PM
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America is full of cull's (humans), yet we let them reproduce.... Sad times.
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  #71  
Old 10-12-2017, 05:32 PM
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If you look on the GON rating map, Tattnall county is rated just above the bottom of the ratings for a big buck. You may have a harder time growing what your looking for in that area since your already feeding protein and food plots.

We had a large 3.5-4.5 looking 6 point 18-19" wide run our property for 2 seasons during the rut, illegal in Troup county or 1 of us would have shot him cause he was a nice mature buck. Never did see any sign of his offspring in the following years.
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Old 10-12-2017, 06:46 PM
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In all seriousness...I hunt 2 properties- one in talbot co GA and Winston co MS. The one in MS is family land that I have hunted all my life. A record non typical was killed there. Seems like some years we have more "culls" and others more "desirable" racks. My talbot count property usually has more desirable bucks but not always. I just hunt...you never know what the rut will bring. I killed an 11 pointer 2 seasons ago that nobody had pics of.
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  #73  
Old 10-12-2017, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Killdee View Post
If you look on the GON rating map, Tattnall county is rated just above the bottom of the ratings for a big buck. You may have a harder time growing what your looking for in that area since your already feeding protein and food plots.

Folks in that area donít register their kills. There are some solid deer in the area. My dad killed one a couple years ago that was close to 135Ē with 2 broken times on opening day. Theyíre around, just donít get bragged about.

But I agree, canít grow deer if they donít have potential. Tattnall is full of crop fields and good hardwoods. But then again if you cull half the 1.5 year old bucks on the property then those efforts are even harder to see results.
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  #74  
Old 10-12-2017, 09:51 PM
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Yeah I know we are not in an area that gonna produce a monster. I am happy with getting them to there potential. I've seen a few 150's from the area that didn't get spread around much but hat doesn't happen often. Always a lot of rumors one was said to come from a 100 acre tract. Of course it's surrounded by thousands of acres.

Had a few through out the years this size but been watching this guy since he was at least 2.5. As a 2.5 you could tell he had potential. Now he's 5.5 and I'm guessing he will gross in the mid 130's.
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Old 10-13-2017, 06:38 AM
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Well Said
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